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Odd random thoughts, mostly Shifts, some other - The Phantom Librarian
Spewing out too many words since November 2003
fernwithy
fernwithy
Odd random thoughts, mostly Shifts, some other
It's actually hard to revisit an older story and re-write it when the characters and surrounding plotlines have evolved. I look at "A Trick of the Firelight" now and I'm thinking, "Why didn't I remember before I wrote it how keyed up Tonks was while they were waiting for the Knight Bus and when they were boarding? How could she just shrug it off so quickly?"

Now, Tonks really does shift out of work mode quickly when she feels like it--she's never going to be a Miss Congeniality style Auror who kvetches, "It doesn't bother me, 'cause I'm the job. Aren't you the job?" But at the same time, I don't want her to appear incompetent or uncommitted to her duty. Might be a bit of a twist to have hyper-dutiful Remus tell her that they've done their part, gotten the kiddos safely to Hogsmeade, and she can relax.

I've got to find some things for Remus to do over the next couple of chapters. I asked a question in little_details, which has some little Shifts spoilers, but this is the kind of place where lack of recent experience with crushes comes into play. (It's kind of depressing. I haven't had a crush in a very, very long time. Celebrity oo-ing and ah-ing aside, because that's not a real crush, and even if it were, there's no interaction to draw on.) Anyone with advice would be more than welcome to post it, though I would particularly like to hear from men.

I'm beginning to realize that I'm going to be in a tricky spot in fandom as I get into the romance, because I definitely see the wizarding world as old-fashioned and don't think that pre-marital sex is the norm. To this point in Shifts, I've been writing the couples as they are in the books, which appears to be ambiguous, but once I get into the specific romance of never-married Lupin and never-married Tonks, I'm not going to be able to be vague anymore, since we'll actually be right in the middle of it. I'm really kind of nervous of the expectation, because the way I see the characters, neither one would be assuming that sex would happen before marriage (they're not innocent of the concept, but I don't see them surrounded by a world where it's terribly common), so they wouldn't make a big issue of it, but I'm worried because in the real world, it's obviously expected and I don't plan to "deliver," since they are not married at the end of OotP. I don't think either character would feel a need to explain it to the other, since it's what they would expect. But do I need to explain it? And if I did explain it rather than just taking it for granted, would it come off as a sermon instead of a setting?

I still want to do something with Regan Weasley and Mira Lupin (from Life on Mars), but I don't have a story for them. Oh, well. It can wait until after HBP, to see if there's anything left of their world that's unshattered by new canonballs.

I really am looking forward to HBP. It sounds like I'm dreading it, but I'm not, except inasmuch as I'm always afraid of having the rug pulled out from under me. Quantum Leap did that to me in the last five minutes of the last episode, and I literally screamed out loud--a year's work just completely down the drain!

Oh, well. I guess that's it.

EDIT: One more thing... I just went over and looked in the Guestbooks at Humongous Bighead, and it looks like there were several comments I never got notified about! Aaargh. Well, thanks to everyone who commented at HB!

EDIT 2: Hmmm. This post didn't end up at the top of my page when I posted it. The time suggests it should. I'm confused.
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Comments
buongiornodaisy From: buongiornodaisy Date: December 24th, 2004 01:31 am (UTC) (Link)
I don't think the author needs to explain his or her position on a certain matter. If you feel obligated to, write your explanation for the lack of sex in the author's notes, but I don't see why that would be neccessary. Fandom seems to expect things opposite of what you write.

I have a similar delimma. I'm writing a romance between two characters who have been married before, and I'm not sure if they would abstain from sex (well, one of them is Hermione, so there's a start).
mrs_who From: mrs_who Date: December 24th, 2004 02:21 am (UTC) (Link)
I don't think either character would feel a need to explain it to the other, since it's what they would expect. But do I need to explain it? And if I did explain it rather than just taking it for granted, would it come off as a sermon instead of a setting?

If we rewind about fifty years, it was assumed (among, I hate to put it this way, "good girls") that there wouldn't be any sexual activity before marriage. Although the man might want to, he would respect the wishes and dignity of the woman and not want an unexpected pregnancy. I say dignity because once the deed was done, she would no longer be considered - nor possibly see herself - as a "good girl." Certainly there were men who wanted to wait as well, but I tend to imagine they did so out of noble and chivalrous intentions and not because they *actually* wanted to wait. Am I giving men a bad rap? I think I'm just being realistic. If there was a way to get a little and still preserve the virtue of his intended, I have no doubt the most noble of men would do it.

You've outlined Lupin's reasons for celibacy in previous posts and I think you're assumptions are probably accurate. However, in a relationship w/Tonks those reasons would be erased. Therefore the reason he'd abstain has to do with respecting her wishes, respecting her parents, and just plain nobility -- being a gentleman and honoring her virtue.

Do you *have* to explain it? No. Will the average fan fiction reader understand it? Hmm. Possibly not.
That's a risk you take either way, eh? :)

You're operating from two "givens". One is that most sexual activity in the Wizarding World takes place within marriage. The other "given" is that it's a good thing. So, it's not only a given, but it's a respected given. Though your characters might struggle a bit with it, they have no intention of going against convention because they LIKE that convention. There's where it's possible you'll lose the readers' understanding. Tonks is young and UNconventional and Lupin is needy.

I think - if you wanted to - you could establish it one of several ways. Andromeda could make a casual mention that "waiting is never easy" or some such thing in sympathy with Tonks. Or Maddie could. Ted could do something rather old-fashioned and attempt to broach the whole thing with Remus - "I know you're both adults, but I just want what's best for my daughter..." Whereby Remus could then assure him that he's of the same opinion.

What does it say that a person might need to justify abstinence, chivalry, or gentlemanliness because it's so outside the norm? They were once seen as moderate and sensible behavior.

OR, you could simply not broach the subject at all. I'm a fan of Lilian Jackson Braun's "The Cat Who..." books. The main character (Qwill) is a 50-something gentleman in a long time relationship with Polly a 50-something librarian. They have romantic dinners, he often cooks for her, they go on dates together, and parties together, and are indeed a "couple." He always leaves "several hours later" or "later that evening" or "when he finally arrived back home". What transpired during those hours is left to the reader's imagination. They might have simply talked and drunk coffee, or there may have been frenzied clothes-ripping. It really doesn't matter to the relationship or to the story either way.

How much does it matter in your Tonks/Lupin relationship?

Do you know you gave me a turn in your last excerpt when they were talking at night at Tonks' flat, and then talking *again* over breakfast. I had to reread to see what you were implying, and then I realized that breakfast was at Grimmauld Place the morning of taking Harry back to school.
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: December 24th, 2004 05:27 am (UTC) (Link)
Do you *have* to explain it? No. Will the average fan fiction reader understand it? Hmm. Possibly not.
That's a risk you take either way, eh? :)


And there it is again--I'm a control-freak bitch who needs to be restrained. ;) This comes right to the heart of my biggest weakness as a writer--my absolute fear that I'm miscommunicating someplace and my little telepathy exercise is going kerfluey and people aren't reading the same story I'm writing. In my head, I know this is a stupid thing to worry about, because no writer in the history of writing has achieved perfect telepathy with his or her readers, and it's just something that you have to accept. People need different things out of stories and take different things out of them. But I fight daily with the impulse to be absolutely clear about every single thing, whether it matters or not.

How much does it matter in your Tonks/Lupin relationship?

That's the question I'm running into in a technical sense. It matters to me in terms of the setting, but in terms of their relationship--no, I don't think it matters that much. Whether they're kissing one another chastely goodnight or humping like bunnies until dawn (I'm assuming somewhere in between), they're crossing the same taboo line. On the other hand, the POV is Remus's and this is the first time he'll really have been involved in a romantic relationship more serious than lunch on a Hogsmeade weekend or dinner out with Mehadi Patil. How realistic would it be in his POV that he wouldn't be turning the thing over in his mind, thinking about the fact that he actually has someone in his life with whom he can be physically affectionate without fear. And the physical affection issue has been a constant one--it's not something he hasn't been paying attention to. Touching someone in any way is a fairly big deal. Once he's cuddling her and kissing her, is he really likely to never have a thought about it?

What does it say that a person might need to justify abstinence, chivalry, or gentlemanliness because it's so outside the norm? They were once seen as moderate and sensible behavior.

Sigh. Yes, I know. It seems to be the one lifestyle that everyone agrees needs curing, and that right now. [TMI]It leaves those of us who happen to be more old-fashioned in a bit of a bind, since the burden is on us to explain "no" rather than on the person who wants to, to explain "yes." And who wants to be seen as a stuffy prude with a totally unreasonable outlook on life? I solve this by not dating and declaring myself an old maid at thirty-four, because I don't want to bother.[/TMI]
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: December 24th, 2004 05:57 am (UTC) (Link)
Once he's cuddling her and kissing her, is he really likely to never have a thought about it?

Then again, with Lupin, it might not be a verbalized thought, even in his mind. Dude's not all that communicative about his relationships, even when he's just chatting with loyal writer like me...
mrs_who From: mrs_who Date: December 24th, 2004 04:32 pm (UTC) (Link)
I should really be finishing a pair of purple leg warmers for my 6 yo, but here I am reading Fernwithy's delightful blog! :) Merry Christmas to me.

On the other hand, the POV is Remus's and this is the first time he'll really have been involved in a romantic relationship more serious than lunch on a Hogsmeade weekend or dinner out with Mehadi Patil. How realistic would it be in his POV that he wouldn't be turning the thing over in his mind, thinking about the fact that he actually has someone in his life with whom he can be physically affectionate without fear. And the physical affection issue has been a constant one--it's not something he hasn't been paying attention to. Touching someone in any way is a fairly big deal. Once he's cuddling her and kissing her, is he really likely to never have a thought about it?

You've got a point. I think you could always use mild physical affection to stand in for the more graphic affection in terms of his thought processes. He needn't be in a carnal act to consider in his mind how unusual and welcome it is to feel another person's body near his. The act of Tonks casually leaning against him, or pulling his arm around her for comfort and security, would induce the same realization. He'll need to deal with the idea of having someone with whom physical closeness of any kind is not just permitted but needed and welcomed, long before the wedding night. She's not afraid to kiss him or allow him to kiss her, for example. Considering how lycanthropy is transmitted, that's a big trust thing!

Are you planning to ever have Dora spend a transformation with Remus? That could certainly symbolize intimacy. The bareness of soul required for both of them, the element of danger, the comfort they'd be to one another, could be more of a relationship binding event than an overnight would be.

Yes, I know. It seems to be the one lifestyle that everyone agrees needs curing, and that right now.

This boggles the mind. With the number of adults who have STDs, the proven statistics about monogamy and happiness, and other such facts, I can't believe that otherwise intelligent people don't put two-and-two together. THIRD date you say? How can people make relationships work that way?
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: December 24th, 2004 09:49 pm (UTC) (Link)
I think you could always use mild physical affection to stand in for the more graphic affection in terms of his thought processes.
I think that's probably true, and what you bring up particularly about kissing... that may well be more emotionally important to him.

Are you planning to ever have Dora spend a transformation with Remus?
I've been turning the question over, and I mostly come up with the technical issue of how to work it. I don't buy the theory I've seen in a lot of RT fics that she's able to be around him all night just because he loves her, and the Wolfsbane is so gosh-darned effective, and I haven't been writing the Wolfsbane as preventing him from doing those animalistic things like shredding his clothes (possibly because they smell like human) or trashing the shack he's in. And with lycanthropy, even the playful nip of a playing wolf would be contageous while he's transformed. He'd almost have to be injured to the point of being unable to strike even a mild blow.

On the other hand, the Transformation Night seems to have become part of the formal structure of a Remus/Tonks story. ;) Also, there's been a lot of build up about what happens when she's there close to transformation, and some curiosity. I have a tickle of an idea of how to do it, but I'm not sure.
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: December 24th, 2004 09:55 pm (UTC) (Link)
THIRD date you say? How can people make relationships work that way?

I doubt that they do. But remember that book I ranted about, He's Just Not That Into You? There's a chapter basically saying, "If he doesn't want to have sex with you, he's not that into you." At one point, he advises women that a man who hasn't had sex with them after a month or so has "already decided not to." I believe the exact sentiment (paraphrased) was, Face it, ladies. He has already thought about getting naked with you, because he's a guy, and for some reason or other has said, "Meh... nah." And at one point, he chastising a woman for giving "free intimacy" to someone who isn't having sex with her, because she's giving him something while it's obvious that he's not committed to the relationship, because if he were, they'd be having sex. (Now, myself, I'd have told her to kick his lousy ass out because he was having sex with other women while he did that, so on the outcome, I'd agree with the author. Just not for that moronic a reason.)
sixth_light From: sixth_light Date: December 24th, 2004 03:15 am (UTC) (Link)
I've always been a bit sceptical about the whole "pre-marital sex didn't happen in the old days" because it's, well, simply not true. There was plenty of pre-marital sex going on, judging by my grandparents' generation - there are at least two half-relatives on my mother's side of the family whose existence says so. It is true that it wasn't openly mentioned, but it happened. It most certainly happened. "Good girls" included.

However, I don't see Remus and Tonks as the sort of people who would, so it's sort of a moot point.

Never fall into the trap of thinking sex is necessary to complete a romance fic; what's necessary is closure in terms of the storyline. An acknowledged, mutually accepted attraction counts as closure in my book. I suppose a kiss if you're feeling daring. :P Think about all those Georgette Heyer Regency novels - no sex whatsoever, or even the mention thereof, but some good romances. When sex is OOC for the characters involved, it detracts from the story. You always write Remus and Tonks in character. You know what you're doing.
mrs_who From: mrs_who Date: December 24th, 2004 03:48 am (UTC) (Link)
I've always been a bit sceptical about the whole "pre-marital sex didn't happen in the old days" because it's, well, simply not true. There was plenty of pre-marital sex going on, judging by my grandparents' generation - there are at least two half-relatives on my mother's side of the family whose existence says so. It is true that it wasn't openly mentioned, but it happened. It most certainly happened. "Good girls" included.

I'm sorry, I don't think I was quite clear enough. I certainly don't think premarital sex didn't happen. Really, you won't find a 36 yo mother of three (that's me) thinking people in olden-days didn't have sex. LOL. Your family is certainly not alone, EVERY family has its sexual skeletons - yours, mine, and I'm sure Fern's included.

My point was that it was *assumed* that good girls didn't do it. Skepticism aside, I'm talking about the moral assumptions and the standards of the culture at large. I never said no one did it. I never said no one HID it. What is considered by the culture to be a standard is not necessarily what happened. We're talking standard though, and the moral standard (even down to manners!) of Rowling's Wizarding World is more akin to the standards of several decades ago than it is to *today's* moral standards.

I hope I've made my point clearer. :)
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: December 24th, 2004 04:20 am (UTC) (Link)
Your family is certainly not alone, EVERY family has its sexual skeletons - yours, mine, and I'm sure Fern's included.

As the direct result of such a thing, I'm certainly not going to argue with that. :) And heck, my unmarried (and never married) parents met while doing a church play! And one of the amusing things we've found out doing genealogy is that my grandmother's straitlaced, strict grandmother had been married for six months when her first child was born.

The point is that it would ruin the reputation. Even as late as 1970, when I was born, people advised my mother to raise me telling me that she'd been married and my father was killed in Vietnam. (Her opinion of this was that no one born in our family or my father's would be stupid enough to fall for that very long... I mean, after all, at some point, wouldn't I be asking the military for his service record, or wanting to see his grave?) And my father's family was so scandalized that they wanted her to leave the city to have me and then put me up for adoption. They had lawyers ready to sue if they were named as blood relatives (and trust me, they could afford way better lawyers than my mother could).

The shotgun wedding was part of history specifically because premarital sex was frowned upon, and that's why there's such a game in genealogy counting the months between the wedding and the first child. It wasn't that the thing didn't happen, it was that it was not socially acceptable for it to continue to happen.
sixth_light From: sixth_light Date: December 24th, 2004 09:03 am (UTC) (Link)
Sorry, I wasn't meaning to imply you guys would be unaware that it was socially unacceptable - I just get sick of the idea that it is only in the modern world anyone has sex before or outside of marriage, and in the Good Old Days™ such behaviour was rare to non-existent. Obviously, we're talking here about an attitude, not a reality. I must remember to engage my brain before I start typing...
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: December 24th, 2004 12:28 pm (UTC) (Link)
Yeah, the point is the attitude and how it would play out in a relationship. At that point, men certainly might hope for a little naughty fun, but only cads would expect that a woman they were with would put out. Now, the rule is that sex is expected on the third date, and if it doesn't happen, there's huge angst over why not.
From: (Anonymous) Date: December 24th, 2004 03:17 am (UTC) (Link)
Re the premarital sex question: To be honest, I think any sort of explanation or discussion on this point would jar a bit. It's not the sort of thing most people casually drop into the conversation, especially in a culture where a particular set of shared values are taken for granted. On the other hand, simply not mentioning the issue wouldn't jar at all (and if any readers are going to be seriously disappointed about not getting a steamy bedroom scene, I've got to wonder which edition of "Shifts" they've been reading!)

In short, I think you're best off leaving things up to the reader's imagination, unless for some plot or thematic reason it's absolutely necessary to establish that they are *not* having sex. That's what JKR does, after all -- we have no canon information at all about the sexual mores of adult wizards, and I'd be shocked if we're getting any in the next two books. That's territory where the books just plain don't go, which is a perfectly legitimate authorial choice.
- Nora
victorialupin From: victorialupin Date: December 24th, 2004 03:40 am (UTC) (Link)
I agree with the people who said that you should refrain from commenting on Remus and Tonk's sexual relationship (or lack thereof,) or you should leave it ambigious. It seems to be the best route, IMO, because most readers would not get the impression that they are having sex, nor would they feel as though you are going out of your way to explain that fact. There's also the fact that this situation doesn't seem to fit with Shifts; while I think that you could write anything well, it would seem odd for the subject to come-up in the story, since up until this point, the biggest details about their attraction have been lingering kisses on the cheek/forehead and small, simple urges. There haven't been many details about other parts of their attraction, so I think that you should continue down that path and keep everything 'behind the scenes.'

However, if you feel that you really want to explain their relationship, it might be best for their abstinence to be explained by their personal beliefs/choices, rather than by the general values of the Wizarding World. There's nothing to directly oppose that opinion of the Wizarding World, but things like very public make-out sessions (at Madam Puddifoot's,) seem to suggest that they are at least starting to become as liberal as the Muggle World. Like I said, there's no concrete proof either way.

Lastly, I personally agree that they probably wouldn't bring their relationship to that level (at least not during OotP,) but not because of how conservative the Wizarding World is. I think that they'd make that personal choice because they are in the middle of a war, and there are so many other things going on around them. They probably wouldn't want to commit to a relationship on that level when they have so many other, much more important, priorities.

~Victoria
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: December 24th, 2004 04:08 am (UTC) (Link)
Oddly, the idea of them not committing to the relationship on any particular level never occurred to me. I assume they'll end the story determinedly committed. Just not having sex.

But since I'd rather write a story than debate about the setting, I think that not bringing it up is probably the best bet.
sprite6 From: sprite6 Date: December 24th, 2004 04:33 am (UTC) (Link)
The fact that there's a war on makes it almost more likely that they'd cut to the chase, IMO. I mean, either could die at any point, and people have a sense of urgency about romance and sex when they realize this. Wars have relaxed social conventions in the past (I read an interesting article on the BBC site about WWII having this affect in Britain).

The thing is, that doesn't necessarily mean pre-marital sex. Many couples rushed to get married before the man was sent into battle.

Just my two cents on the general topic; in terms of Shifts, I agree that leaving it vague is a good idea. A story is often more romantic when that's the case. Although I must say, Fern, that while I'm sure whatever you decide to write will be wonderful, I personally would like them to really kiss by the end. :)
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: December 24th, 2004 04:34 am (UTC) (Link)
while I'm sure whatever you decide to write will be wonderful, I personally would like them to really kiss by the end

Kissing, I can definitely promise. And sooner rather than later. :)
sprite6 From: sprite6 Date: January 2nd, 2005 05:04 am (UTC) (Link)
Yay!!!!
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: December 24th, 2004 05:38 am (UTC) (Link)
However, if you feel that you really want to explain their relationship, it might be best for their abstinence to be explained by their personal beliefs/choices, rather than by the general values of the Wizarding World.

The problem with that approach is that if it isn't the norm, it means spending a lot more time talking about it, because they'd each have to figure out if the other person shared that value. In real world society, the assumption is that everyone is going to have sex before marriage, and if the wizarding world is the same, two people both deciding not to would have to spend a lot of time figuring out how to bring up the subject of not having sex. If it's just a cultural norm, then it's no big deal if they're kissing in her flat and he says, "I'd best go now," and she nods. No explanation necessary because that's the expected behavior. In contemporary society, the expectation if he said such a thing would be for her to explode and demand to know why she was undesirable, and then spend several chapters angsting over it until he explained the decision.
melyanna From: melyanna Date: December 24th, 2004 03:43 am (UTC) (Link)
Huh. Today I posted a fic for another fandom, and among the comments I got was one that said she'd never even considered the couple in question being romantically involved, but not sexually involved, but that it worked for her in my fic. (And this was fairly explicit about what wasn't going on, and why.) I was actually a little worried about it, since the convention for sex in every relationship in that fandom is even stronger than in HP (after all, the characters are all adults from the beginning). But what I realized is that yes, I surprised them, but they didn't mind. It was a break from the normal for them, and they were open enough to accept a different POV.

This is probably going to come off wrong, but I'll say it anyway. This is just my experience, but the readers who like reading about sex in fics usually don't mind when sex isn't present. And the readers who will mind probably aren't reading stories like yours anyway, so I don't think you've got anything to worry about.
From: (Anonymous) Date: December 24th, 2004 02:28 pm (UTC) (Link)
Speaking as someone from a subculture that still embraces a fairly old fashioned sexual ethic, I can see the explanation difficulties.

However, Remus is also a teacher school full of teenagers. It's not unlikely that he and another teacher might discuss, in general terms, the wild things students get up to in their off hours. Since Remus is also seen as an older man, no one would be surprised if he seemed to be the product of a more conservative era. He doesn't have to pass judgement on what his students may or may not be doing. He simply has to admit that he "was raised in a different world" as far as how he would act. If pressed, he might acknowledge that that different world is something he and Dora have in common.
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: December 30th, 2004 01:41 am (UTC) (Link)
I don't really think the teens at Hogwarts are doing much of anything wild. At Smeltings, yes--Dudley and Piers talk casually about the pub girls, and Dudley mentions the boxing team (against Joe's wishes) hiring prostitutes after a match. But in that milieu, everyone thinks Remus and Dora are already married, so there's no discussion of the subject one way or the other.
From: (Anonymous) Date: December 27th, 2004 11:07 pm (UTC) (Link)
I don't think any commentary about the character's feelings towards premarital sex is at all necessary. In fact, I think it would take away from the story. To blatently say why they would not have sex before marriage would come across as preachy, and having them thinking about sex too much would cheapen the characters that you've established.

You mentioned somewhere that they will not be getting married by the end of the story, so just because they don't have sex within the story doesn't mean that they will never have pre-marital sex. Mentioning that your Remus and your Tonks choose to wait until marriage is as irrelevant as mentioning how many kids they want to have or something.

It's the end of December right now and they don't even consider themselves a couple yet. Assuming it takes another month for them to consider themselves a couple (and right now it feels like it should take longer than that) all that means is that they don't have sex within the first five months of their relationship. You hardly need to justify that to anyone!
From: walkerhound Date: December 29th, 2004 11:27 pm (UTC) (Link)
one thing about the "good girl doesn't and a good boy doesn't expect a good girl to" conceit. i think you might be missing how this applied to guys. the stereotype was that "nice" girls weren't interested in sex(it was something thy did after maarriag because it was what thy were expected to do). intel farly reanstley a girl showing to much(or any at all) interest in pre marital sex was considered by definition, well something bad. but peaple forget that guy's get the same thing in revers, evan now if i guy(especially a young guy) indicates that he would rather wight for marriage, he's looked on as some what strange(or worse). so ya i think you should at lest cut remus a little more slck.

on something slightly fifferent. you were talking about how the new book might kill off some of your stories with new cannon. do you think you would ever go back to say "of a sort", also i would like to cast my vote for some follow up to the life on mars one to.
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: December 30th, 2004 01:39 am (UTC) (Link)
It's not about not cutting slack, it's about social expectations. In the contemporary world, the third date would have all kinds of serious expectations of sex, and if the WW is the same, then the subject needs to be discussed. If the WW is more old fashioned and it was simply expected that a serious courtship (as opposed to something with a floozy) would involve waiting for marriage, then the subject wouldn't need to be discussed at all. That Remus wants her really isn't open to question--of course he does. And she wants him, too (and isn't shy about that). But that's not really a serious determinant of their behavior in the setting as I understand it. (Which, I must admit, I find a huge relief to slip into. I find the hypersexuality of the contemporary world quite exhausting, and would prefer the "default setting" of a relationship to be, "Not without a ring and a legal committment, bo." Other things might go on, but those of us saying "No" wouldn't be expected to perpetually explain ourselves and defend our "no.")

And yes, I am going to go back and do the Sort for Harry's year and the Sort for Ginny's year.
From: walkerhound Date: December 30th, 2004 03:25 am (UTC) (Link)
my fault on the slack bit, this was more directed to the post were somebody asked if thay were giving men a bad rap. not realy to do with you at all well the original question that is.

i guss to my respons to the origanl question would be no you don't have to have them going for it. but not so much because of the WW world as the type of people thy are. rumis is not a dirty old man(or a horny boy) and tonks isn't a wild hooligan. manly i found the reference to the 3 date rule assign(don't get me wrong i no people that think like that). and yes if thy start geting closer sooner or later there is realistically going to be some fiscal closeness(as non graphic as you write it doesn't really matter, the reader will take from it what thy project onto it)

thanks on the other stories. your one of the about 3(3 or 4 others just don't post anything anymore) peaple that i constantly check for updates(at lest once when i get on the computer and once before i get off). just to be clear one of only 3 i've found whose stories i will read form author recognition, because of consteant quality(now i'm looking for quantam leap books to try and find yours :)
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