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Random DoM battle observations - The Phantom Librarian
Spewing out too many words since November 2003
fernwithy
fernwithy
Random DoM battle observations
Well, I was going through for the exact order of events once the adults hit the DoM (almost there in Shifts), and getting the whole sequence in my head, I noticed a few things about the adult participation. No particular point to prove, just observations.


  • Moody falls first. A lot of people have talked about how Tonks "didn't last long," but she falls second after an active duel with Bellatrix. We don't see what happens to Moody, but it's implied that Dolohov hits him. He's able to crawl over to Tonks later, but he's pretty badly hit, and he's down almost immediately--Harry and Neville find his eye and see him lying there bloody. For a really hotshot Auror, this is the second time we've seen Moody fall pretty quickly to a D.E.--he's first to go here, and Barty Crouch, Jr, was able to subdue him quickly enough that no one was alerted before he was able to scarf the Polyjuice Potion and stick the real Moody in his trunk. Of course, this is most likely because he's reckless rather than hapless, but it's still interesting.

  • Sirius saves Harry, and it is immediately followed by Harry saving Sirius. Granted, the saving of Sirius isn't permanent, but this establishes a parity of responsibility between the two--they're looking after each other in the immediate sense, as well as in the larger sense of feeling generally responsible for one another. This is followed fairly quickly by Lupin jumping between Harry and Lucius Malfoy and simply telling Harry to get out... and Harry obeys, this time taking responsibility for Neville rather than for Lupin. It's an interesting contrast.

  • Lupin is absent from Harry's notice from the initial entrance until the Malfoy incident. This probably just means that he wasn't in Harry's sightline, but he could have been out of the room. One of the first things he does after Dumbledore gets things under control (after Sirius's death) is ask Neville where the other children are--had he tried to find them?

  • I've made up all sorts of reasons in my head why Lupin didn't check on Harry before he left, but it's really very simple. The last thing that happens is that Kingsley is hit by Bella and put out of commission. Dumbledore goes after Riddle. Lupin is the only adult left to look after two badly injured children, one moderately injured one, and two more who are quite frightened. No need to come up with anything else, is there?
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Comments
coralia13 From: coralia13 Date: February 7th, 2005 10:50 pm (UTC) (Link)
VERY interesting observations - especially the one about Sirius and Harry's relationship vs. Remus and Harry's. It always seemed like Remus was more Harry's guardian, and Sirius more his brother/best friend. This makes sense, as Sirius was never able to grow up - he spent twelve years trapped in his early twenties. Remus, more mature than Sirius from day one, was the only one of the Marauders who was ever able to grow up in any "normal" way - rather ironic, since he is the only one of them who, during his childhood, seemed as if he would never be able to have a normal life.
From: hplurker Date: February 7th, 2005 11:07 pm (UTC) (Link)

Moody may have problems because of his wooden leg. He would have to put up shields (instead of dodging) against curses. This would decrease his offensive capability. Also, Moody was described as bleeding from his head - did he just fall and hit his head on the stairs? Again his wooden leg may have been the culprit.

Tonks was taken down by Belatrix who also managed to defeat Sirius and Kingsly and was able to deflect a curse from Dumbledore. I would not sell Tonks short based on the evidence of the DoM fight.

I am not so sure about Lupin leaving right after entering and then again come back. Remember that there were only five order members (plus Harry and Nevile) against nine or ten death eaters in the veil room. If Lupin did not stay to fight the odds would become worse.

a_lurker From: a_lurker Date: February 7th, 2005 11:45 pm (UTC) (Link)

here via the daily_snitch

Tonks was taken down by Belatrix who also managed to defeat Sirius and Kingsly and was able to deflect a curse from Dumbledore.

It's interesting to note how powerful Bellatrix Lestrange is... unless she was just lucky, she is more than a match for several Order people, including Tonks.

I'm probably stretching this a bit, but, it seems like a comparison is drawn between Bellatrix and Tonks and that JKR is pointing out that Bellatrix, though 'bad', comes out on top.

p.s. some lurker you are, commenting! pfft. ;D
From: (Anonymous) Date: February 8th, 2005 02:16 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: here via the daily_snitch

The way I read the DoM scene, there's totally a comparison being drawn between Bellatrix and Tonks, and it's one that would make both women deeply uncomfortable if they noticed it. Tonks first attempts to Stun Lucius -- her uncle -- and then goes after Bellatrix, her aunt; for her part, Bellatrix takes out Tonks first, then Sirius. I think they're both, consciously or unconsciously, pursuing a blood vendetta. If Tonks has a significant role in HBP (we can only hope), I expect she'll be faced with the choice between doing what's right and doing what comes to her by instinct as a Black; naturally, she'll choose the former, but I hope we get to see at least a little bit of the struggle.

I love Tonks to death, but she strikes me as someone who's trying just a shade too hard to be the anti-Black, and unintentionally giving away how similar she is to the rest of the family in the process.

- Nora
a_lurker From: a_lurker Date: February 8th, 2005 03:00 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: here via the daily_snitch

I love Tonks to death, but she strikes me as someone who's trying just a shade too hard to be the anti-Black, and unintentionally giving away how similar she is to the rest of the family in the process.

I never thought about that before, but I definitely agree. Interesting point.
rosefyre From: rosefyre Date: February 9th, 2005 01:08 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: here via the daily_snitch

Sirius is doing the same thing in many ways, actually. He wants to be different, but in order to be different, he goes completely out of his way - being a Gryffindor, helping James land a Muggle-born girl, being a bastard to Kreacher, getting rid of old family heirlooms...he tries so hard to separate himself, but he never truly succeeds.
sprite6 From: sprite6 Date: February 7th, 2005 11:09 pm (UTC) (Link)
Dumbledore goes after Riddle. Lupin is the only adult left to look after two badly injured children, one moderately injured one, and two more who are quite frightened. No need to come up with anything else, is there?

That sounds reasonable, though I wouldn't necessarily say that Dumbledore went after Riddle - Riddle didn't appear until Harry was in the atrium. I'd guess Lupin tried to follow Harry and Dumbledore told him to stay with the kids while he went after Harry. I just don't see Lupin leaving Harry to face alone a deadly killer like Bellatrix, who's already taken down two adult fighters. After all, he ran after the Trio when he saw Sirius on the map, even forgettting to take his potion.

Interesting point re Moody. He is retired, though, and his gray hair suggests to me that he's considerable older than most people in the Order - older than McGonagall, I'd guess, assuming her hair color is natural. He may not be able to fire off curses as fast or take as many hits as some of the younger Order members can, even if he has more experience. Plus his wooden leg makes him more vulnerable - he doesn't have the mobility the others have.
velvetmouse From: velvetmouse Date: February 8th, 2005 12:03 am (UTC) (Link)
I'd guess Lupin tried to follow Harry and Dumbledore told him to stay with the kids while he went after Harry. I just don't see Lupin leaving Harry to face alone a deadly killer like Bellatrix, who's already taken down two adult fighters

Hmm, possibly, but I actually see it as more of Lupin's teacher-training/instinct kicking in. Once you've been a teacher, been responsible for a group of children, it's very hard not to slip back into that role when the situation warrents. Especially when the group of children is one that you know.

While I don't see him particularly willing to leave Harry, a teacher learns that you often are better served staying with the big group and having another adult (in this case, Dumbledore, although belatedly) go after the errant child.
sprite6 From: sprite6 Date: February 8th, 2005 01:21 am (UTC) (Link)
That seems reasonable, but OTOH, the other kids were in no danger of immediate attack, and Harry was. A teacher would leave a group of kids to chase down one who was running into the street, wouldn't she?

It's also possible that Lupin was injured. Harry easily pulled out of his grasp; maybe Lupin couldn't keep up with him. I know Lupin was still standing, but that doesn't mean he was in any state to face Bellatrix. As the last to arrive, Dumbledore was fresh and uninjured, besides being the most powerful; he was the logical one to go after Harry.
velvetmouse From: velvetmouse Date: February 8th, 2005 02:02 am (UTC) (Link)
True. I'd definitely buy that Lupin wasn't feeling 100% (don't suppose anyone knows when in relation to the full moon the DoM battle took place?)
From: (Anonymous) Date: February 8th, 2005 02:29 am (UTC) (Link)
If the year is 1996, then in real time the battle was on Thursday 27 June, and the next full moon was just three days away, on the Sunday/Monday of 30 June/1 July (a Blue Moon!).

However, in JKR's universe, the Thursday apparently fell on 25 June, so you could also make a case for the full moon being five days away. JKR never checks the real dates of the lunar calendar; many fanfic writers take far more care ...
scarah2 From: scarah2 Date: February 8th, 2005 01:20 am (UTC) (Link)
Lupin is absent from Harry's notice from the initial entrance until the Malfoy incident. This probably just means that he wasn't in Harry's sightline, but he could have been out of the room.

I have a kooky theory where there's a prophecy concerning Lupin. His boggart is actually a prophecy. Trelawney might know about it, which explains why he avoids her. The time where he seems to be missing from the battle, he is tossing the prophecy room for his prophecy.

Make of it what you will.
scarah2 From: scarah2 Date: February 8th, 2005 05:01 am (UTC) (Link)
Yep. They're described sort of similarly. I may be off the mark, but I feel there's something still going on with prophecies. OotP had so many references to similar things, Peeves smashing the ink bottles, bubbles all over the place. Even so, it may not concern Lupin. But I do think he had an unexplained absence during the battle. It could be as innocent as fernwithy suggests, that he's checking on the other kids.
olympe_maxime From: olympe_maxime Date: February 8th, 2005 03:38 pm (UTC) (Link)

Oooooh

****Icon love*****
scarah2 From: scarah2 Date: February 8th, 2005 05:01 am (UTC) (Link)
Oh and thanks! LOL :D
jan_aq From: jan_aq Date: February 8th, 2005 11:10 am (UTC) (Link)
Haha. ^_^ That's certainly out there.
pary_scorn From: pary_scorn Date: February 8th, 2005 03:01 am (UTC) (Link)
Awesome observations!

Re: Moody, I think that the age and wooden leg arguments are right on target. However, I would argue that at this point Moody is also a bit incompetent. Wasn't part of the reason that Crouch, Jr could so easily overtake/impersonate him was that he was crazy and paranoid? No one had a second thought about the "disturbance" at his home when Crouch kidnapped him. Back in the day Moody was def. the best of the best, but I think that his age, injuries and wealth of bad experiences have left him a poor fighter now.
lizbee From: lizbee Date: February 8th, 2005 03:50 am (UTC) (Link)
Interesting observations! I do think that Moody is often overestimated by fandom -- but then, I've written about Aurors a lot, and I'm not sure that many reach retirement age. Those that do aren't accorded much respect -- Moody certainly isn't.
(no subject) - teawithvoldy - Expand
prplhez8 From: prplhez8 Date: February 8th, 2005 04:50 am (UTC) (Link)
Well..I'm not sure if you read these or not...but here goes. My sq writing group was talking about your post this evening and I was wondering if I could friend you? Thanks...btw...well done on Shifts...its one of my absolute favorites.

-prplhez8 (on the quill)
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: February 8th, 2005 04:51 am (UTC) (Link)
Sure. I like friends.
lucie_p From: lucie_p Date: February 8th, 2005 08:42 am (UTC) (Link)
A Tonks fan only ever since I started playing her in an RPG, I have re-read that scene several times. One more thing I noticed in this situation:

Harry did not have to think; there was no choice. The prophecy was hot with the heat of his clutching hand as he held it out. Malfoy jumped forwards to take it.
Then, high above them, two more doors burst open and five more people sprinted into the room: Sirius, Lupin, Moody, Tonks and Kingsley.
Malfoy turned, and raised his wand, but Tonks had already sent a Stunning Spell right at him. Harry did not wait to see whether it had made contact, but dived off the dais out of the way.


The adults are mentioned entering the room in this order: Sirius, Lupin, Moody, Tonks and Kingsley.

It might just be how Harry 'sees' it, the order being the one in which he sorts them in his mind, in which they are important to him, but it still is a fact that it is Tonks who seems to be acting fastest; she is the one who casts that stunning spell at Lucius who at that moment poses the greatest danger as he is about to grab the prophecy.

Go Tonks!
grimorie From: grimorie Date: February 8th, 2005 09:24 am (UTC) (Link)

A question of Hermione

Hi, I was just was wondering, will the adults (Lupin et al) notice Hermione's growing ruthlessness?
olympe_maxime From: olympe_maxime Date: February 8th, 2005 03:55 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: A question of Hermione

Well... I think ruthlessness is putting it a bit too strongly. There're three things that Hermione does which might be called 'ruthless':
1. Forcing freedom on elves
2. Putting the jinx on the DA name-sheet
3. Feeding Umbridge to the centaurs

Now, as for tricking elves into freedom - that's not ruthlessness. She is misguided, and stupid, and interfering in things she shouldn't be interfering in, but it's not 'ruthlessness'.

As for the jinx on the DA namesheet: think about the proportionality of the punishment to the crime.

As far as Hermione knows, if the DA is ever betrayed,
(a) all the students involved will be expelled by Umbridge
(b) Harry, at least, will probably have to stand trial again, because Umbridge clearly has a vendetta against him, and it's Harry's group after all.
(c) she has reason to suspect something *worse* might happen to Harry, because of Umbridge's sadistic nature
(d) she knows that Harry won't be safe unless he is under Dumbledore's eye, now that Voldemort is back, and if Harry's expelled, the worst might happen.

So the consequences of the DA being betrayed are truly dire. What is the punishment that she decides for the betrayer? Extreme personal humiliation for an indefinite period of time.

Now, when the crime is weighed against punishment, it seems to me that the betrayer is getting off lightly. What's personal humiliation compared with torture and death and the expulsion from school of 30 kids?

Lastly, Hermione feeding Umbitch to the dementors, in my book, deserves a standing ovation.

Let's review the situation. Hermione is now convinced that Sirius is being tortured by Voldemort in London. She is just as desperate as Harry to get to London to save him. But instead, all of them are now in the clutches of a woman who:
(a) is a total sadist
(b) is v. v. EVIL
(c) has taken away their wands
(d) is about to do a CRUCIATUS on Harry, proving that she will stop at nothing to get what she wants from these kids.

In this situation, why would it be wrong of Hermione to choose to follow *any* plan she can think of? It's self-defence after all, since Umbridge was willing to use an Unforgivable on one of them, *and*, they don't have their wands!

As for her 'using' the centaurs, I doubt that's 'ruthlessness'. At worst, it's immaturity on Hermione's part to not know how Centaurs think - she probably doesn't realise that they aren't interested in helping human beings in trouble. At best, she's sompletely innocent, because in her book, it's unthinkable that somebody might not be willing to help people who are in danger - it's the centaurs who're acting all hoity-toity here.

So no - I don't think Hermione is ruthless at all.


grimorie From: grimorie Date: February 9th, 2005 01:15 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: A question of Hermione

Oh, I agree on your points and I'm not saying Hermione being a shade gray is bad it just makes her really interesting. I have a thing for morally ambigious characters.

What I find interesting is that, Hermione not only thought of leading Umbridge to the centaurs but she actually followed through on it.

And all the ideas, the DA, the Rita Skeeter interview... it's really a good thing that Hermione is on Harry's side.

As for the free the House-Elves thing, her heart is in the right place but she really doesn't understand that the House-Elves don't appreciate it. She's pretty obssesed about it. Like Ron said, Hermione is brilliant but scary.

And I really find that interesting.
sep12 From: sep12 Date: February 8th, 2005 09:34 am (UTC) (Link)
As I see it, I think that the most likely explanation is that Dumbledore ordered Remus to stay behind with the others. We are at a point in OotP where Dumbledore is realizing the scope of his folly (scope of his folly: that just sounds so "Lord of the Rings" to me!) in not telling Harry the truth sooner. He would therefore feel it is his responsibility to go after Harry and bring him back or whatever.

As far as Moody goes, I think the age thing has something to do with his performance, but I also think that maybe the DEs saw him and targeted him; he was an old enemy and there were probably old scores to settle. (Okay, boys and girls, today's word is 'ferret'.) And even though Tonks and Kingsley are active aurors, how much experience would they have with evil the level of the DEs? Maybe its just a notch higher than they expected, but for the old hands, Remus, Sirius and Moody, it's, not quite business as usual, but they would know more what to expect. I also think that Tonks was trying so hard to get to Bella, that maybe she wasn't concentrating properly. Just my take, have a great night everyone! Fern can I be a friend too?
jan_aq From: jan_aq Date: February 8th, 2005 11:15 am (UTC) (Link)
Sirius saves Harry, and it is immediately followed by Harry saving Sirius. Granted, the saving of Sirius isn't permanent, but this establishes a parity of responsibility between the two--they're looking after each other in the immediate sense, as well as in the larger sense of feeling generally responsible for one another. This is followed fairly quickly by Lupin jumping between Harry and Lucius Malfoy and simply telling Harry to get out... and Harry obeys, this time taking responsibility for Neville rather than for Lupin. It's an interesting contrast.

NICE! That was really well noticed. Wow, this is like a really good thread for all the adult relationship inferences and such.

Now what did you mean "taking responsibility for Neville rather than for Lupin"? Did you mean to point out that Harry feels more responsible for Neville, more brotherly, that he doesn't see Remus as needing his help, that this older ex-teacher would look after him?
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: February 8th, 2005 12:49 pm (UTC) (Link)
Now what did you mean "taking responsibility for Neville rather than for Lupin"?

Just that Harry's there with Neville. Sirius tells him to get Neville and the others out, but Harry stays watching Sirius's duel closely enough to freeze Dolohov when he neds to. But when Lupin starts battling Malfoy and tells Harry to get the others and go, Harry immediately turns his full attention to the still-cursed Neville and starts help him up the stairs, asking if he can try to walk and so on. They've gotten halfway to the top when Sirius dies and Harry runs back down.
mrs_who From: mrs_who Date: February 8th, 2005 12:01 pm (UTC) (Link)
I think that Lupin would move to go after Harry only to have Dumbledore call him back, then Lupin would notice the injured parties - including Tonks. I suspect that Kingsley got the students back to Hogwarts (Lupin not being allowed on campus) and Lupin got Tonks and Moody to St. Mungos.
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: February 8th, 2005 12:52 pm (UTC) (Link)
Well, Lupin not being allowed on campus is something I would guess, but it isn't in the book (at least I don't think so).

Kingsley's hurt, though. Not badly enough to need hospital time, but he does fall just before Bella gets away. I wonder if Madam Pomfrey comes and gets the injured students back, but it's possible that Kingsley and Moody recover relatively quickly.
mrs_who From: mrs_who Date: February 8th, 2005 01:04 pm (UTC) (Link)
LOL - the not being allowed at Hogwarts, that's Fern-Contamination, isn't it?

You've probably already seen this lovely, long essay at the Lexicon: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-battle.html It details out the final battle and who-probably-got-whom. May help.
(Deleted comment)
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: February 8th, 2005 06:55 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Nitpick

Actually, that was deliberate, meant to be more of a Who... wha... when... sort of thing.
trinity_clare From: trinity_clare Date: February 8th, 2005 10:22 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Nitpick

I BET YOU NOTICED I SHOULD HAVE SAID "WHOM" UP THERE.

I did that on purpose, you see, to give you something to do.

< /shoebox>
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