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It's too hot to sleep - The Phantom Librarian
Spewing out too many words since November 2003
fernwithy
fernwithy
It's too hot to sleep
It's almost one, I do have to work tomorrow, and I'm just thinking, Ick.

Oh, well.

I'll remember this when I'm complaining about the cold in the winter. Maybe I should start looking at L.A. again...

Nah.

I seem to be fairly well squared to start an HBP-year continuation of Shifts, which surprises me, as I wasn't thinking I'd be remotely ready to think about a big project for awhile. There are things I have to figure out and plans to make, but I keep getting these scenes piling into my head, just snatches of things more than full stories.

There are questions I need to think about. Why is Tonks so unconcerned about Mundungus nicking Sirius's things? Is she aware of it and tracking it already, and doesn't want to make a scene (in which case, Harry threw her off!)? Or is she just allied with Remus in the whole "Let's not let Harry go off the deep end, kthnxbye" club? How far did Remus have to go with the werewolves? Where are Ted and Andromeda at Christmas? (In Harry's POV, there's no need to answer that, but if I'm doing any more Shifts, it's pretty crucial.) At what point does Remus unilaterally cut things off, and does he immediately come up with the issues about his finances and his age? (JKR probably intended it to always have been an issue, but I'm stuck with what I've written, and he'd mostly gotten past it, so I'll have to undo that. He was never entirely sure about it, so it's not a huge leap, but it will need a catalyst.) On a technical level, I have to think about POV choices, since they spend the year mostly apart; one POV or the other might not be the best way to do it, even though that's what I did with Shifts. And how to structure the shifts in POV and...

Okay, it will actually be awhile before I start. ;P
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Comments
sonetka From: sonetka Date: July 26th, 2005 05:44 am (UTC) (Link)
Yay! I eagerly anticipate the new story :).

I'm afraid I don't have much in the way of plot suggestions to make, but I don't think that getting Remus into a tizzy about his supposed unworthiness would be too hard. All he has to do is get depressed, and after he's assigned to hang out with Greyback & Co. that shouldn't be too hard to do. Creeping feelings of "THIS is what I really am" and "If she saw me doing this there's no way she'd still love me," would probably start up pretty soon. I don't mean in a dramatic adolescent "I am UNWORTHY! SHUN ME! OMG ANGST!" way but the fact that he has anything in common with someone like Greyback (worse still, that Greyback himself is the cause of this) is going to hurt, and of course once you have a big cause of depression the little causes will follow and start bugging at him; too old, no money, all that stuff. He'll be looking for excuses to run himself down, because that's what you do when you feel like crap.

It's true that he was doing werewolf interaction during "Shifts" as well, but these werewolves weren't nearly as hardcore, and also he was getting to see a lot more of regular people, Muggles and wizards alike. It sounds like his assignment in HBP would have left him far more isolated and in the company of much crazier people.
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chocolatepot From: chocolatepot Date: July 26th, 2005 07:10 pm (UTC) (Link)
Your icon = beautiful.
dalf From: dalf Date: July 26th, 2005 06:29 am (UTC) (Link)
Well my $0.02 which you have not asked for but get anyway on all of these issues:

* Tonks not concerned about Mundungus theving - She probbly would be concerned about it if she were not totally wrapped up in being miserable about the Remus situation. Not only is he broken thigns off with her to one extent or another he is trying to infiltrate a nasty werwolf community headed up by the guy that bit him. Sirius is dead and all that stuff at 12GP is pretty dark and nasty anyway .... Sirius did not seem to care too much for it (as he was tossing most of it out anyway).

* "How far did Remus have to go with the werwolves" - I think this is 2 or three questions really. From what Remus says on page 334 it seems that the werwoves he has been living with are largly allied with Voldemort but they are not collectivly so (as a group). There are indications that they do not trust anyone even eachother that much. From what he says this is not a group that has gathered recently but one that has existed in place of trying to intergrate with wizarding society. Also he implies that Greyback is "out there" but not necessarrly with the group. So I think he is actually spying on what is happening in the werwolf community not infiltrating a group of werwolf DEs. In that context I think he is probbly not required to do anything, such un-trusting folks probbly all deal with the transformation diffrently and its probbly a very personal thing. On the toerhhands the ones that do it communally probbly make a big deal about it and are probbly the nastier ones of the bunch. My opnion is that remus is there not for that group but for the ones taht are on the fence to try and (with out drawing attention) get some to do the right thing.

* Your Ted and Andromeda are pretty fleshed out. You shoudl have them doing somethign related to yoru plot. You did good devloping them to some extent in Shifts use them.

* Breaking it off - I can see him at first breaking it off when he realses what Fenrir will do to her, out of fear. That fear combined with seeing how hard the life is in the werwolf underground could force him into a sort of "this is my reality" kinda moment, which will bring back the lycanthropy as a barrier to their relationship. At that point he will be looking for other reasons and convince himself that he was not being pratical or (in his mind) adult/reasonable when he decided that age and money (especially in light of the lecanthropy) were not really issues. But, its yoru story so you can take this whatever direction you want.

* POV shifts are hard. Few authors do them in ways that don't disrupt the story. Good luck!
chicleeblair From: chicleeblair Date: July 26th, 2005 01:01 pm (UTC) (Link)
POV shifts can be done well IMHO if you do at logical stopping points or even chapters.
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: July 26th, 2005 01:04 pm (UTC) (Link)
Yeah, alternating POV is the most common form for contemporary novels. The difficulty is just finding the rhythm for the voices.
dalf From: dalf Date: July 26th, 2005 02:41 pm (UTC) (Link)
In my expirence, even published and well known authors) have trouble with them. Even when they are done well they leave a feeling like you are being disrupted most the time. Frequently they come at points where you really feel like you are getting into the story and take you back to another thread that you feel less intrested in.

The best ones I think recover quickly and pull you back into the the story quickly but the disruption is still there.
chicleeblair From: chicleeblair Date: July 26th, 2005 04:58 pm (UTC) (Link)
I dom't know about that. I think that there are plenty of published authors with well done POV shifts, esspecailly if done in the 3rd person. Then again My Sister's Keeper does it well in first person, with identified breaks.
dalf From: dalf Date: July 27th, 2005 02:16 am (UTC) (Link)
It might just be a matter of personal taste. Though I will say that Anne Rice does it extreamly poorly. It makes several of her books very close to unreadable (though I did read and even enjoy them so there you have it)
dalf From: dalf Date: July 28th, 2005 02:46 am (UTC) (Link)
If you do go with a sort of Remus is functioning in werwolf circles where he is basically trying to carfuly and descretly recrute or keep peopel from going with Fenrir (but still with the off and on encounter with Fenrir who hopefully is not figuring out what he is doing or at least not confirmed any of it). Then in terms of the Mongomery boy it could be that in his cautiousness he missed what he might have seen as a chance to prevent the situation that lead to the incident. Not sure what the exact circumstances would be though. In anyevent I think having him participate would espically in a way that he coudl have avoided ... well ... I'm not sure *I* coudl forgive him for that ..... so his chances of forgiving him self are basiclaly zero.
sixth_light From: sixth_light Date: July 26th, 2005 06:31 am (UTC) (Link)
Why is Tonks so unconcerned about Mundungus nicking Sirius's things? Is she aware of it and tracking it already, and doesn't want to make a scene (in which case, Harry threw her off!)? Or is she just allied with Remus in the whole "Let's not let Harry go off the deep end, kthnxbye" club?
I think the answer to this is that she does know about it, but is more immediately concerned in that scene with making sure Harry doesn't do something stupid. She's stationed in Hogsmeade as security for the castle and students - their safety is her professional priority, and Harry's safety (or non-rash-action-ness) would be a personal priority, as well as an Order priority.

Or, rereading the scene, I could buy the tracking explanation. Unless she appeared out of nowhere because it's Harry she was watching...

How far did Remus have to go with the werewolves?
I'm thinking quite far. Like, probably not actually all-by-himself killing and eating far, but I think he had to tacitly accept and possibly participate in some fairly nasty things. He probably has a lot of residual guilt from seeing the bitten kids that he talked about and not being able to help them. I think the distance he had to go to be accepted with the werewolves was directly linked to his break-up with Tonks.

Where are Ted and Andromeda at Christmas? (In Harry's POV, there's no need to answer that, but if I'm doing any more Shifts, it's pretty crucial.)
Since Remus and Molly seem to have been told different things...I'm guessing that she told Remus she was seeing them to make him feel less guilty, but was actually unwilling to face up to a whole day of family while feeling so upset.

At what point does Remus unilaterally cut things off, and does he immediately come up with the issues about his finances and his age?
As I mentioned in response to the second question; related to the werewolf thing. My supposition would be that he drew further and further away as he got further into the werewolf group, and then some major event caused him to have an existential "I'm a horrible monster" moment, at which point he broke it off, closer to the start of the school term than the beginning of the holidays. The finances and age issues were probably brought up later and reinforced as he repeated them.
marycontraria From: marycontraria Date: July 26th, 2005 06:55 am (UTC) (Link)
I am incapable of independently imagining poor Remus doing truly nasty things with the werewolves, but that's just my rose-coloured imagination glasses talking. You'lll have to decide on that one because I can't come up with it on my own. As far as the recurrence of his too-old-too-poor-too-unworthy spiel, I'm with those who have suggested that it probably built throughour the year as he tried to convince himself that distancing himself from her was all for the best. Or rather, the recurrence of the too-old bit, and the appearance of the too-poor-too-unworthy bit. ;)

Ted and Andromeda's apparent absence at Christmas could just have been Molly trying to make Remus feel guilty guilty guilty... she just said that she thought Tonks might have said something about spending Christmas alone, didn't she? So like you already said at some point during the past week, Ted and Andromeda could just have been working and therefore not available for the whole holiday, or something as simple as that.

I'll have to reread the scene with Mundungus because I don't really remember it.

As for POV, I vote for a split between his POV and hers... this is partially selfish, as your Tonks ficlets stand out as favourites for me. I don't know how you could switch back and forth smoothly between them, though - that's tough. Good luck!
jesspallas From: jesspallas Date: July 26th, 2005 08:24 am (UTC) (Link)
Hurrah! Looking forward to that. :)

I would say Tonks was probably in the "Don't want to make a fuss in front of Harry but fully intending to bawl Mundungus out about it in private" camp. It's reasonable to assume she might consider Sirius a sensitive subject for him and she doesn't want him to see how upset she is?

Remus and the werewolves - ouch. I would say he witnessed/was aware of a great deal of nasty stuff but didn't necessarily take an active role. I can't see him killing or biting anyone, even as a cover - he'd never be able to forgive himself. But being forced to witness dreadful things might explain his "bitterness" in the Christmas scene - but I think if he'd actively been involved, he would have been in a much greater state. :(

Ted and Andromeda - It was suggested in Shifts that they might try for another baby - could they have gone away for a romantic break over Christmas. Or (and I cringe at suggesting this because it makes me feel horribly, horribly cruel...) could she have had a miscarriage? It would explain why she might not want to celebrate at Christmas and could add to Tonks' depression...:(

I'm with most people on this - I would say there must have been some kind of trigger to Remus to break things off. I would suggest Tonks' initial depression when Harry comes to the Burrow is probably because Remus is going/has gone off on this dangerous mission and has probably called a halt to things "for her own good". Then at some point over the summer, some kind of self-disgust thing about what he's doing causes Remus to break things off completely (possibly using the well-trodden excuses in a misguided effort to make things easier for Tonks) which is why she is so gloomy on the Hogwarts Express and why her Patronus has changed.

I would say shifting between the two POVs would be best - perhaps alternate chapters for each of them? That way the proximity of their chapters constantly emphasises their being apart. If that makes sense.

Hope that helps. :)
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: July 26th, 2005 09:58 pm (UTC) (Link)
It was suggested in Shifts that they might try for another baby - could they have gone away for a romantic break over Christmas. Or (and I cringe at suggesting this because it makes me feel horribly, horribly cruel...) could she have had a miscarriage?

I've actually been toying with the latter idea, particularly combined with the instability of the Black family. Ted may just unilaterally decide to get Andromeda out of Britain and away from the whole thing if she starts to top over the edge, and Nymphadora wouldn't be able to go away for the holiday, especially if she's on duty.
a_t_rain From: a_t_rain Date: July 26th, 2005 02:13 pm (UTC) (Link)
Ted and Andromeda: Maybe they're just not Christmas people; or maybe Ted's horrible relatives are descending upon them for a visit and Tonks doesn't want to deal with them? Either way, I don't think it's that odd for adult family members to choose to spend the holidays apart.

Remus and the werewolves: A bit of a puzzle, because he does say, "I cannot pretend that my particular brand of reasoned argument is making much headway against Greyback's insistence that we werewolves deserve blood" -- which makes it sound like he's openly declared where he stands on the issue, but this would seem incompatible with his position as a spy.
jesspallas From: jesspallas Date: July 26th, 2005 02:33 pm (UTC) (Link)
Perhaps Remus' words there could mean he's been having a quiet word on the side with those he thinks might be open to reason, rather than the suicidal option of publically challenging Greyback. And not finding many that are. :(
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: July 26th, 2005 10:01 pm (UTC) (Link)
I'm still wondering about this. Greyback has to know (from Bella) that Remus fought with the Order at the MoM only a couple of weeks before HBP starts. Would he be more likely to trust a Remus doing wolf-y things, or more likely to believe that Remus was suddenly thrust into the situation and isn't quite able to participate fully? (Of course, Fenrir being Fenrir, he'd try to force Remus to do quite a bit.)

But in some ways, a point at which Remus challenged Fenrir might actually win him some respect, because he'd be an insider (paradoxically, at the same time it would make him an outcast) rather than a hanger-on.

I think I have to read about wolves.
jesspallas From: jesspallas Date: July 27th, 2005 08:45 am (UTC) (Link)
You know, I had an idea for a fic a while ago in which Remus went undercover amongst the Death Eaters by pretending to be angry and disillusioned about the Umbridge laws and the state of the war and, having been driven over the edge by the death of his last friend, Sirius, acted a bit... well, mad and feral in order to fake his way into their trust. I abandoned it in the end and stripped out the other concepts in it for a different fic because I thought it wasn't something that he would be able to live with himself doing. And then along came HBP...;)
redbrunja From: redbrunja Date: July 26th, 2005 04:55 pm (UTC) (Link)
How far did Remus have to go with the werewolves?

I'm with Leithal on how hard it is to independently imagine that Remus was running wild on full moon nights. For one thing, I don't know if he would be able to comparmelalize to the degree he would need to to not go insane with guilt. For another, I think, given what we've seen of Lupin's character, it would be much more likely that he wasn't part of the killing and biting, but he didn't stop it. Then you have the tie-in with the group dynamics of the Marauders, and he could have something *else* to anguish about.
keridwen From: keridwen Date: July 26th, 2005 07:15 pm (UTC) (Link)
This begs the question of whether or not Remus remembers full moon nights when he hasn't taken the wolfsbane potion. He may not have done anything, but if he can't *remember* what happened, that'd be enough to make him more than a bit unstable.

If having to go deals with the werewolves drives Remus into a depression (in the medical sense), then it's perfectly reasonable for him to break things off with Tonks, as folks who are depressed are often anything but rational.
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From: (Anonymous) Date: July 26th, 2005 07:35 pm (UTC) (Link)

From Violet Azure

How far did Remus have to go with the werewolves?

There's a lot he could have done. I think he would always try to hang back a bit when transformed. Maybe when they're in human form, Remus could (reluctantly) participate in things like burning down apothacary shops that brew the Wolfsbane potion or vandelizing greenhouses that supply wolfsbane or harassing members of the Werewolf Registry Office? That way he marginally involved with the group, but no one's getting hurt. I can see him doing something like that to appease Greyback, but as the year progresses, I can see Greyback becoming more and more impatient with Remus to step up the violence (also, when the DE invade Hogwarts, Remus has got to realize that his cover is blown.)

Where are Ted and Andromeda at Christmas? (In Harry's POV, there's no need to answer that, but if I'm doing any more Shifts, it's pretty crucial.)

With Bella on the loose, maybe it was recommended that they take an extended holiday? Andromeda seems like a tough woman, but maybe Bellatrix can do something that puts the fear of god into them.

At what point does Remus unilaterally cut things off, and does he immediately come up with the issues about his finances and his age? (JKR probably intended it to always have been an issue, but I'm stuck with what I've written, and he'd mostly gotten past it, so I'll have to undo that. He was never entirely sure about it, so it's not a huge leap, but it will need a catalyst.)

Maybe spending time around Dora's friends could make those fears come back, especially Maddie since she had a baby in Shifts. He could absorb the stresses of what it's like having a new baby and seeing how much that costs. Plus, any savings from his teaching job must be drained away and maybe it's hurting his pride a bit that Dora has a steady job and if they got married and she chose to stay home with the baby for a bit, I could see him worrying that he wouldn't be able to provide for a family, especially since having children is do important to Tonks. I don't get the impression that Remus has a lot of adult friends, and I could see him worrying that if he and Tonks got married and had kids, that their child could end up an orphan like Harry and, to some degree, Neville. With Sirius dead, Remus doesn't even seem to have a friend he can turn to as a godfather. Plus, even though we the readers know that the war is going to end next year, the characters don't know this and Remus grew up under a long Voldemort reign. Perhaps he's thinking he might have to spend years as a spy and it's better to break things off now than to string her along for a decade or so.

Hope the writing is coming along and that you found a way to cool off. It's incredibly muggy where I am too. Yuck!

sprite6 From: sprite6 Date: July 27th, 2005 12:22 am (UTC) (Link)
At what point does Remus unilaterally cut things off, and does he immediately come up with the issues about his finances and his age? (JKR probably intended it to always have been an issue, but I'm stuck with what I've written, and he'd mostly gotten past it, so I'll have to undo that. He was never entirely sure about it, so it's not a huge leap, but it will need a catalyst.)

I can't help feeling that the reasons Remus gives - that's he's too old and poor - are just excuses. The real reason is the one Tonks actually addresses: that he's a werewolf. I think running with Greyback's crowd made him start to feel subhuman. When he tells Harry about it, he calls the werewolves his "equals," which implies that he doesn't see himself as an equal to a non-werewolf. And then he contrasts the werewolves with "normal people." I'd say he thinks Tonks is one of the normal people, and he's not worthy of her because of his condition.

Although now I think about it, when we see Tonks upset the first time, Molly told her Remus would be over for dinner the coming weekend. He also came to Harry's birthday party, so he might not have been on assignment yet. Hmm.

If Malfoy mentioned Greyback at the end of the summer, he must already have been involved with Voldemort, in which case Snape would probably have told the Order about it. What if afterward Snape said something nasty to Remus that made him rethink his relationship with Tonks? It would have a lot of force coming from Snape, I think, when Remus almost killed him in school and yet got excellent Wolfsbane Potion from him. Remus would take the responsiblity on himself instead of getting angry with Snape.
merlinssister12 From: merlinssister12 Date: July 27th, 2005 01:28 am (UTC) (Link)
First about Tonks seeming unconcerned about Mundungus nicking Sirius' things, I think that the Order already knows. Dung was talking to Aberforth (the barman from the Hogs Head) as Harry approached him.
As to how far did Remus have to go with the werewolves? It sounded to me when he was talking to Harry at Christmas like he wasn't taking the Wolfsbane Potion anymore. Remus could therefore, not even be sure himself how far he has gone with the other werewolves while transformed. His seeming willingness to loose the control that the potion afforded him in the past would make him a more plausible spy among the werewolves, but I think it would take a devastating toll on Remus as a person. I also think that he must not be in direct contact with Greyback, since Greyback knows at least one family of Death Eaters who would recognize Remus.
Where are Ted and Andromeda Tonks at Christmas? They are probably either in hiding from Andromeda's sisters or Tonks just wants to be alone in her depression and is turning down all invitations.
At what point does Remus unilaterally cut things off? It was probably a staggered series of events, starting off with either his new assignment or , in my imagination, the discovery of Sirius' will. I had thought that with their renewed friendship that Sirius would have left something for Remus in his will, Harry being wealthy already. I think his will was an old one from before his arrest. That would start Remus' argument about "I'm too poor!" The "I'm too old," was probably an argument he made out of habit. The final break would have come from the self-loathing he felt over Wolfsbaneless transformations among other werewolves, were he could never be sure what he had done, or what others had while he was with them.
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: July 28th, 2005 02:56 am (UTC) (Link)
I think the discovery of Sirius's will and the removal from Grimmauld Place might be a good place to start it, since I ended Shifts with Remus and Dora going to Grimmauld Place and referring to it as "home."
From: (Anonymous) Date: July 27th, 2005 02:37 pm (UTC) (Link)
Mundungus said in the last book it would be easy to get the crest off, but the crest is still there when Harry encounters him. Far be it from me to make Mundungus sound honest, but the Order could have had reasons for wanting people to know things with the Black family crest were appearing for sale. Also, it's silver. Remus is hanging out with a dangerous crowd of werewolves. A goblet isn't good for a weapon but it is good for potions. Tonks or one of the others might have had reasons.

As for Remus making a big deal about the age and werewolf thing, I'd guess he's connecting things to something ugly that happened. Although I can't see how age played into this, Emmaline Vance just met a very ugly death. If werewolves were somehow involved, it might have something to do with how he's feeling.

Actually, if she was a friend of Remus who seemed pretty well adjusted about his lycanthropy and then something happened before or related to her death so that she freaked at a critical moment (choosing to get herself killed rather than be a werewolf herself? Not likely but possible) or trusted a werewolf when she shouldn't have and that led to her death, that might account for why Remus is touchy again on the issue.

Ellen
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: July 27th, 2005 05:07 pm (UTC) (Link)
Emmeline's death is really nowhere near a full moon--closer to a new moon--so it really can't have much to do with werewolves, except for Fenrir. It was Amelia Bones, I think, who was referred to as being a particularly nasty murder. I could be argued that it was Fenrir, but in terms of the story I'm working on, I haven't really established Emmeline as being especially close to Remus (though I do have her connected to Ted Tonks), so I don't think it would be especially compelling in this story to use her death for that. Especially when I'm going to be using it in Tonks's part of the story. ;)
From: (Anonymous) Date: July 28th, 2005 02:02 am (UTC) (Link)
Just curious, but is that near the new moon in your story or is there something in the book that indicates it? I was skimming through that part of the book, and there are lots of references to the darkness because of the fog but none (that I caught) about the moon. Although the minister calls Amelia's death a "nasty killing" when talking to Fudge, he had earlier thought of Emmeline and Amelia's deaths as "two very nasty and well-publicized murders." I assume Emmeline put up as good a fight as Amelia.

Sorry I'm not much use. Maybe it's just that he's been seeing other werewolves at their worst, other werewolves who have been through many of the same experiences he has. His "there but the grace of God go I" instincts have got to be in high gear. What he sees them doing may totally repel him but it's being presented as normal behavior for werewolves, and he's having to act around them as if it's normal behavior. Does that fit?

Ellen
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: July 28th, 2005 02:30 am (UTC) (Link)
Oh, just by the July 1996 calendar. The full moon was on July 30, and the week Emmeline Vance died was the week leading up to Friday the 19th.
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