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Last specific HP shipping post - The Phantom Librarian
Spewing out too many words since November 2003
fernwithy
fernwithy
Last specific HP shipping post
I think I just want to get this stuff out of the way. So, final word on Where I Stand on the Great Shipping Wars.


Fern's Picks.
Ron/Hermione
It just seems to be where the books are going. Much is made of their growing attraction via their increasingly silly bickering. Harry sees them as a unit. They're on equal footing symbolically (Ron representing the heart, Hermione representing the mind). JKR is careful to show them being concerned about one another. The hints aren't particularly subtle. This one is pretty much smooth-sailing, canon-wise. I think they're likely to start dating in Year 6, and how Harry deals with it would be the Trio Issue of that book. Year 7 would focus more on Harry himself.

Harry/Ginny
I can't say that I'm wild about it one way or the other; I just think it's likely to happen, again for structural reasons. From the beginning, Harry has been in search of a family, and the Weasleys have offered him one. He is grateful for the offer, but as of OotP, it's quite obvious that he can't quite accept it. At least three times, JKR goes to great pains to show Harry feeling like an outsider, when all the Weasleys assume he's in. (The Christmas invitation, the night Arthur is injured, and the visit to him in the hospital.) A marriage to Ginny would symbolize his acceptance of a new family. As to other canon clues, nearly every time Ginny was mentioned prior to the D.A. (and except in the chamber itself), it was with a connection to romance somehow--her crush on Harry, the Valentine, later on, her love life discussed among the trio in direct contrast with Cho, etc. It's just a very constant theme with this particular character.

Remus/Tonks
The one least likely to occur in canon. I just somehow doubt that JKR cares that much about Remus's love life one way or another. That said, they are shown together from the start of her appearance, they have parallel introductions (a voice speaking in the darkness followed by a magical illumination), and they fairly clearly enjoy one another's company. It's good to see Remus being playful with someone, and Tonks needs someone a bit more sober than she is to keep her anchored. So I like this one. Though one serious thwap to fellow-shippers (to take ladylisse's cue): There's no need to denigrate Sirius. Also, these two are not the same age, and there are issues with that, and frankly, neither of them is a teenager. So please, no videos on the couch while her parents are out.

Other than those, I don't have any special predictions. Fleur/Bill will probably last because there was no other reason to introduce it. We may see Penny/Percy again (having a Muggle-born girlfriend could be a deciding factor in some moral decisions of his). Hagrid/Olympe seems to be happening. And I doubt any of the currently married couples are going to split up. That's about it on my romance-predicting kick.

Other popular ones:

Harry/Hermione
The major problems with this ship are structural. Obviously, Harry and Hermione love each other a great deal, but there's nothing in the books to indicate that there's anything romantic about it. They can't argue ignorance, as the subject is brought up repeatedly by outsiders, but every time it comes up, they're puzzled. They're not defensive, which might suggest some self-deception. Harry is simply baffled that Cho imagines anything is going on with Hermione, and Hermione rolls her eyes at it all. More importantly, JKR has been very careful to balance Ron and Hermione in Harry's adventures, giving them equal time and equal standing. Book one focused on the building of the trio. Book 2 had Ron sharing the final adventure and was Weasley-centric (the heart). Book 3 had Hermione sharing the final adventure and involved puzzles to solve (the head). Book 4 spent a lot of time exploring Ron and Harry's relationship, with Hermione put in a supporting role. Book 5 spent a lot of time exploring Harry and Hermione's relationship, with Ron in a supporting role. And so on. The point is, the two of them balance Harry. Whenever one of them is separated from him, he gets off balance (book 3, without Hermione, he keeps neglecting duty and getting in trouble; book 4, without Ron, he's unhappy and not having much fun). By the same token, if one were to suddenly move closer to him on a permanent basis, it would throw him off-balance.

Harry/Luna. I like Harry/Luna a lot, on an emotional level. Harry reaching out to her at the end of OotP, the way she's constantly supportive in her flakey and spacey way, her oddly practical helpfulness when it comes down to the line... and I especially liked that she went to the MoM without having the faintest idea about the emotional build-up to it. She just went because she thought it was the right thing to do. I really hope they date a bit in Year 6. However, the character is too new and too unconnected to Harry's struggles. Harry's wound is the loss of his family, and Luna's symbolic connections don't point to the healing of that wound. She wasn't introduced until past the half-point of the series, either, so she just doesn't have the weight as a character to handle being Harry's final healing. Harry's friendship with her symbolizes his growing acceptance of the irrational possibilities of life, the opening of his mind to things he had previously written off... but that's just not his major wound, so a Luna marriage wouldn't be a symbolic healing.

Harry/Cho
This one was sunk by a canon-ball. Not because Cho was upset through the whole thing, and not even because of the Marietta incident, which was the kind of Big Mistake that you look at and think either, "I'm going to kill her" or "We have to talk this out." It's more a question of little things. Harry can talk to her about Quidditch, but not much else. She thinks Madam Puddifoot's is just wonderful, and it's not a venue where Harry feels even remotely comfortable. She can't deal with Hermione as Harry's friend at all.

Ginny/Neville
Like Harry/Luna, I love this ship and would love to see a bit more of its dynamics. Neville has needed a Ginny in his life to tell him to stop belittling himself. I don't have an alternate Neville-ship in mind (small voice of fear that he may end up a sacrificial lamb like so many other Pureblood only children in this series, and thus not in need of an OTP), but I think Ginny's feelings toward him seem to be fiercely protective more than romantic.

Ron/Lavender
I just don't get it. I can't even comment.

Remus/Sirius
We've seen these two together quite a bit (for adults in the HP series), and in all that time, there hasn't been a suggestion of hand-holding, warm looks, etc. The one time they embrace, it's described as brotherly, and that seems to be the essence of the relationship among the Marauders in general. Sirius may or may not be gay (ignoring a girl in the Pensieve pretty much looks to me like him being an arrogant jerk more than him being gay); his attachment to James does come off as almost crush-like, but that's not proof one way or the other. As for Remus, there's not a hint about anything. JKR may manage to blow all the Remus ships out of the water by saying that he's an enforced celibate because biting's not the only way to pass lycanthropy, and it wouldn't jar anything that exists in canon about the man. There's been no clue at all about where his attractions might lie. So it certainly wouldn't be impossible for them to be gay. The problem is that even if they were both confirmed as being gay, I'm not sure I'd think they had a relationship with one another any more than I think that Harry and Hermione do. Internally, my problem with this ship is that, among the Marauders, Remus and Sirius don't seem to be especially close. They're closer to one another than either is to anyone else as adults, after James's death and Peter's betrayal, but in that tight-knit group of friends, there doesn't seem to be anything "extra" between Remus and Sirius. Externally, I admit, I just find the created brotherhood that lasts into adulthood more interesting than a romance. Also, the random firing that the Wolfstar does on the Wolviewotcher has not endeared the ship to me, but that's just personal.

Dumbledore/McGonagall
My mother has a ninety-year-old friend who reads HP and ships D/M, G-d bless her. Shipping is apparently an all-fandom phenomenon. But I don't see a whole lot of evidence of it.

Kingsley/Tonks
Kind of fun. For some reason, I see Kingsley as her boss, though, and that's generally a bad idea. No special objections to this ship--there are no hints of it, but I guess nothing that especially makes it impossible--I just prefer Remus/Tonks.

Charlie/Tonks
I like Charlie, I like Tonks. But we haven't seen them interact yet, and being the same age just isn't enough for me to conjecture a meant-to-be status.

I honestly can't think of any other ships on which I have a definite opinion.

ETA: Not true--I forgot I erased a whole class in a reorganization of hte post. All the teacher/student, adult/minor ships--Snarry, Remus/Hermione, Snape/Hermione, Sirius/Harry etc--set my teeth on edge. I didn't address them, but suffice it to say, I don't find them canonically likely.

22 comments or Leave a comment
Comments
riibu From: riibu Date: May 1st, 2004 10:38 am (UTC) (Link)
My mother has a ninety-year-old friend who reads HP and ships D/M, G-d bless her.

Wow. Er, I guess she likes them because they are her generation. Rather sweet, actually.

By the way, I friended you -I hope you don't mind. I've spent the afternoon reading stories in your archive 'Vader's Mask'. It's quite fun to meet another adult fan who shares both my SW and HP interests, and who is also INTJ. ;)
skelkins From: skelkins Date: May 1st, 2004 11:28 am (UTC) (Link)
I don't have an alternate Neville-ship in mind (small voice of fear that he may end up a sacrificial lamb like so many other Pureblood only children in this series, and thus not in need of an OTP), but I think Ginny's feelings toward him seem to be fiercely protective more than romantic.

Hmmmmm. Well, I'm not much of a shipper (I'd far rather the survivors of the endgame not end up all neatly paired off, myself), and I suspect that you may be right about Neville's eventual fate within the series, but now I am curious: what of Neville/Luna?
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: May 1st, 2004 07:33 pm (UTC) (Link)
Neville/Luna? It's possible, if JKR goes for the neat pair-offs. I don't see a lot of evidence for it, but it wouldn't be overly weird.
(Deleted comment)
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: May 1st, 2004 07:32 pm (UTC) (Link)
EEEEEEK!

(Sorry. Harry/Tonks scares me almost as much as Harry/Sirius.)
(Deleted comment)
katinka31 From: katinka31 Date: May 1st, 2004 11:37 am (UTC) (Link)
My mother has a ninety-year-old friend who reads HP and ships D/M, G-d bless her.

adlfjasdlkfjasdkfa I love that!

Book one focused on the building of the trio. Book 2 had Ron sharing the final adventure and was Weasley-centric (the heart). Book 3 had Hermione sharing the final adventure and involved puzzles to solve (the head). Book 4 spent a lot of time exploring Ron and Harry's relationship, with Hermione put in a supporting role. Book 5 spent a lot of time exploring Harry and Hermione's relationship, with Ron in a supporting role. And so on. The point is, the two of them balance Harry.

Wow, how much more clear and concise could it get? Thanks for that.
silverhill From: silverhill Date: May 1st, 2004 12:01 pm (UTC) (Link)
The Ginny relationship is tough for me.

On one hand, I completely agree with your analysis of Harry/Ginny. It makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, I have a soft spot in my heart for Neville/Ginny. I really like that pairing. Maybe that's why my parody has a bit of a Harry/Ginny/Neville love triangle going on in the background. Hmm...

I'm so interested to see what happens to Ginny romantically. I could see it going either way, and (unlike some of those weird, rabid shippers) I'm not going to be disappointed however it turns out.
narnian_dreamer From: narnian_dreamer Date: May 1st, 2004 12:15 pm (UTC) (Link)
I'm not crazy about Harry/Luna either, but not because of her late introduction, or because of marraige as a symbolic healing. (Very Jane Austen idea, but one I'm not sure I like.) I just think Luna's a little too flakey to end up with a character with an average level of spaciness. I see her marrying someone who is either almost as out-there as she is, or a character who is ridiculously grounded. I don't know if she'd work with an in-between.

And I also thought that Remus and Sirius both seemed to be closer to James than to each other.
narnian_dreamer From: narnian_dreamer Date: May 1st, 2004 12:22 pm (UTC) (Link)
And I love McGonagal/Dumbledore. No textual evidence, I just think it would be really cute.

(Was I the only one who read A Tale of Two Cities hoping for Mr. Lorry and Miss Pross to get married at the end?)
mafdet From: mafdet Date: May 1st, 2004 06:48 pm (UTC) (Link)
Am I the only person on this earth who likes Ginny/Dean? Which is canon? Or at least quasi-canon. There's no reason that Ginny can't have a boyfriend or two before she goes off with Harry. Let's hope Dean isn't a whiner like Michael Corner - I can't blame Ginny for ditching him, for getting sulky because Gryffindor won at Quidditch.

As you probably know, I'm also a Remus/Tonks shipper. (Though I also like Tonks/Charlie or Tonks/Weasley Twin) I think they complement each other well. I wish, however, there wasn't such an ocean of crapfic written about this Ship. Remus isn't going to call Tonks "N'dora;" Tonks isn't going to shapeshift into Sirius to make Remus happy and then later have a pity party for herself. (A pity party is very OOC for Tonks, anyway.) I think any relationship between the two of them will develop slowly and out of a friendship. And in my universe, they marry and have an adorable baby boy named Sirius. ;>

Remus/Sirius: You've stated good reasons as to why this Ship isn't really plausible. Of MWPP, the ones who are really tightly bonded are James and Sirius, with Peter their adoring satellite and Remus somewhat the outsider. I just don't think that Sirius and Remus were particularly close before PoA; and afterwards I think their closeness was more about nostalgia, and healing, and mutual concern for Harry, than anything sexual.

What really kills R/S for me is the fact that Sirius tried to use Remus to kill Snape. This could have gotten Remus himself executed. I doubt even Sirius, who is Mr. Impulsive, would have put his lover in such peril. I don't think he would have used James in such a way.

And yes, I confess to feeling a bit of resentment at the Wolfstar shippers for a) snarking at the Wotcher Wolvie and b) going around saying "we're canon, we're canon!" Especially after OOtP the "Puppyshippers" have really gotten up my nose, and it's soured me on R/S.
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: May 1st, 2004 07:31 pm (UTC) (Link)
I'm interested in where JKR is going with Ginny/Dean, just not as a permanent thing. (Like Harry/Luna, I can definitely see it as a "Hey, look what resource I just brought in!" thing.)

going around saying "we're canon, we're canon!"

AAARGH. I hate that. Especially since there's nothing in OotP that even hints at it. I'm sorry, but Remus is not the only one living at 12 Grimmauld Place, and plenty of people give presents together. You really have to be going in with the preconception of them as a couple to think these are hints. And thinking JKR dropped them deliberately in order to hint at the ship is like saying that she mentioned Snape not eating at Grimmauld Place because he's a vampire. (A notion, according to her chat, that surprised her.)
erised1810 From: erised1810 Date: May 2nd, 2004 08:04 am (UTC) (Link)

NOw really...

<
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<<I'm also a Remus/Tonks shipper. (Though I also like Tonks/Charlie or Tonks/Weasley Twin) I think they complement each
other well. I wish, however, there wasn't such an ocean of crapfic written about this Ship. Remus isn't going to call Tonks "N'dora;" Tonks
isn't going to shapeshift into Sirius to make Remus happy and then later have a pity party for herself. (A pity party is very OOC for
Tonks, anyway.)>>
Youvé sen that? I'd liekto know where to direct sporks. up soeoens'big nose preferrabl yadn ditch the pen and notepad as well. becaus the ysure ad hack knwo how to cheapen the metamorphmagus featue int osomething SECUAL and spit and sneeze al lvoer that? i. so. hate. that 9and i'v sene iti nfemmeslash wher thewohle morphing thign ws to be asymbo lf nothing-is-real or osmethign else related to ilusions..where she changed itn oharyr to kiss ginny. blech!)
SO..umm...nol. I cna't even gasp at astunnedly at that-one.
and tonks and angst re liek Snape andfeeligns of warm fuzzy wuvand butterflies inhis stomach (at age 40 or so midn you.)
*gurgles* I th kI need soemone to pop my eyes back in becasue i"m THAT shocked.
ashtur From: ashtur Date: May 1st, 2004 06:53 pm (UTC) (Link)
I have to say that by and large I agree with you down the line. I think that Neville/Ginny may be a tad more likely than you think. I truly think that Neville's heart is very likely turning in her direction. I'm just not sure about what she thinks of the idea. No doubt in my mind that N/G is the biggest threat to H/G.

Other thoughts. While I think that H/G is the direction the story is pointing, I think that's it's still entirely possible that Harry ends up "unshipped". Perhaps his entrance into the Weasley's won't involve something as drastic as marrying Ginny, but just his eventually coming to accept it within himself.

One other. I do actually think that Draco/Pansy is happening. Much as I hate to say it, the only way I can describe Pansy is "gold digger".. and assuming that she's of acceptable blood to Lucius, she'll probably end up marrying Draco. On the other hand, I also fully expect the clan Malfoy to hold very strongly to the old tradition of keeping a mistress on the side.
mafdet From: mafdet Date: May 1st, 2004 08:58 pm (UTC) (Link)
I can definitely see Draco/Pansy, though as of now I think they are just friends - especially because they were not with each other on Valentine's Day in OOtP. I can see them becoming a couple later, however. And I think they deserve each other. Canon Draco is NOT sexy, suave, or sarcastic. (If anyone is snarky in the series, it's Harry. ) Draco and Pansy are a perfect match in their mutual homeliness and brattiness, IMO.

About the possibility of Lucius keeping a mistress on the side: Of course JKR isn't going to go into this in a series marketed for all ages to read, and which is pretty much "PG-13" anyway. But it's not impossible that Lucius has a mistress. Perhaps that is one reason why Andromeda Black elected to marry an ordinary Muggle-born wizard. Andromeda probably figured, sensibly, that a loving and faithful, if "unsuitable," husband was a far better choice than a rich, pureblood aristocrat who cheats. If we are to take the relative personalities of Nymphadora and Draco, 'Dora by all indications comes from a happy family whereas Draco has the whiny brattiness of a poor-little-rich-kid.

I admit I'm prejudiced in favor of Andromeda and Ted because of the wonderful Ted Tonks that fernwithy has depicted. Fern's Ted is so KEWL I can see why Andromeda married him.
From: a_p_ Date: May 1st, 2004 09:26 pm (UTC) (Link)
Hmmm...


Ron/Hermione: Closest thing to a sure bet any ship has going right now. As you know, Fern, I saw R/Hr just from watching the first movie, so it wasn't too hard to sell me on the idea for good once I read the books! Love these two.

Harry/Ginny: Don't care for them (mostly a thoroughly indifferent feeling). Was generally indifferent to Ginny's character in Books 1-4, and was irked by the way her character development was handled in OotP. I'm a little...I don't know...I don't think I like the idea that Ron can't make Harry feel like a Weasley, and even after Molly sees Dead!Harry right along with her husband and children, he doesn't feel like part of the family, but after knowing them for 6-7 years, it's Ginny that makes him really be a Weasley. Not saying that your observations are wrong, just that I'm not rooting for these two.

Remus/Tonks: Probably wouldn't have thought much of this one, if not for you, Fern...your enthusiasm for it makes me want to give it a good long look. :)

Harry/Hermione: Don't like this ship at all, you give a very good summary of why.

Harry/Luna: Ah, my true Harry ship. :D I just love the way these two could fit together...I think in a lot of ways, she could be just what Harry needs.

Harry/Cho: So over, it's hardly worth discussing. ;)

Ginny/Neville: Decent idea, and I think Neville could use someone Ginny-like.

Ron/Lavender, Kingsley/Tonks, Charlie/Tonks: Shrug.

Remus/Sirius: Frankly, this is probably the slash ship with the most potential canon behind it that I've seen in any fandom I'm involved in...though, like you, I don't read the writing that way, and certainly don't think it's set in stone that either or both are gay, or that they're together. There's just decent potential there if you want to run with it.

Dumbledore/McGonagall: Your mother's friend cracks me up. :D


All the teacher/student, adult/minor ships--Snarry, Remus/Hermione, Snape/Hermione, Sirius/Harry etc--set my teeth on edge. Strongly agree.

From: alouette Date: May 2nd, 2004 01:48 am (UTC) (Link)
I don't care much for shipping - really, the shipper mentality was to a great part what drove me out of the fandom, I just got tired of how obsessive people were about it. The only pairing I personally care about is Lily/James - and that you can't argue about! Well, I suppose there are some people screaming "Lily can't have really loved James because he was such a jerk so it must be Remus/Snape/Frank Longbottom/Caradoc Dearborn who is really Harry's father!" but anyway.

That being said, I generally agree with you. Ron/Hermione seems obvious to me, I like it all right, and I don't get why anybody ships Harry/Hermione. Harry/Ginny seems pretty likely to me - I might like Harry/Luna as well, but for structural reasons it seems less likely than Harry/Ginny. I'm not wild about H/G, but I've got nothing against it either. I'm just not much of a shipper.

I used to ship Remus/Sirius before OotP - not as something I believed would come about in canon, but something that could be true without contradicting and that I liked in fanfic. However, after OotP I haven't cared a little bit for that pairing. I think I was already getting tired of it before, and after OotP the idea of their friendship was much more important to me than any imagined romance. The R/S shippers have driven me mad after OotP, with their insistence on having tons of canon evidence when none of what they cite is something that needs to be read as romantic evidence. Like friends never buy shared Christmas presents? Like friends never look at each other or have influence over each other's behaviour? Like your voice wouldn't crack at your friend's death? The way some people insist on those things as canon evidence of romance is really belittling of friendship, and that makes me mad.

Some people also started hating the book just because it destroyed the possibility of a happily-ever-after for R/S, which annoyed me as well. And then there were those, of course, who branded Tonks as a Mary Sue just because they realized she might be paired with Remus, at least in fanfic if not in canon. The Tonks=Mary Sue was one of the most absurd arguments I heard after OotP came out. I like Tonks. I don't ship Remus/Tonks, but I don't mind the idea, and it actually occurred to me right after OotP - I thought it'd be so bad if Remus had to be alone all his life after losing all his friends like that, so maybe he ought to move in with Tonks, platonically or non-platonically?
From: alouette Date: May 2nd, 2004 01:51 am (UTC) (Link)
Correction to the beginning of the third paragraph - "something that could be true without contradiction canon". I should reread my comments before I post them.
erised1810 From: erised1810 Date: May 2nd, 2004 07:57 am (UTC) (Link)
Can I jsut hug you? For keeping my disfunctional brain from
just these thoughts and prevent Fern from having soemthing
utterly incoherent and uneccessarily long in her inbox?

Because i'll start about subtext adn he way peple lok for it 9and the way they look for any slashy moments in books and movies when that's NOT the focus of the canon story) jsut makes me that incoherent. It's al lfu and write away if yo uwis hbut I'm NEVER going to buy sirius/remus, or marauders slash i anwhole, not for man author I adore otherwhise 9at least not anymore..sigh. yes, I learned the hard way.)
heh. sorry about that.
From: alouette Date: May 3rd, 2004 02:48 am (UTC) (Link)
*laughs* Hug away all you want. :) Yeah, I can't stand it when shippers of any brand, including R/S, become so obsessed with digging up "subtext" to support their ship in canon when there is nothing to really prove it there, that they forget what the story is about.
erised1810 From: erised1810 Date: May 4th, 2004 09:55 am (UTC) (Link)
"Ach1 exactly. LIke hullo? like friendship for instance?I wrote ascene in one fic where sirius gives james agood-bye huck .Well give the mabreak. if your bestfriend went in hiding that's hwat yo ucan do to keep yorusel from you turning into a puddle. :)
and the joint present *groan*
kikei From: kikei Date: May 2nd, 2004 07:02 am (UTC) (Link)
Sometimes, the shipper battles get out of hand i.e. Wolfstar vs WotcherWolvie. dude, I don't think either of them are likely to ever happen... I only ship Remus/Tonks because it's got a nice dynamic, I like the idea myself (and well. It kind of helps me stay sane, oddly, because of the whole deal that the most ideal man my mother wants me to marry happens to be a decade my senior). If it does happen I'll be pleasantly surprised, if it doesn't, I couldn't care less.

*shakes head* and the arguement for R/S about the hug, the x-mas present, etc etc... God. If I took those clues and applied them to my RL friends, ALL of them would be gay. We're a touchy-feely lot. It kind of makes me want to throw something when they inisist they're right. Go ahead, ship your ship, leave the rest of them alone! (I mean, I ship Sirius/Andromeda, as uncanonically possible as that is, so I won't spit fire down anyone's throat if no one does that to me)

yeah, I'm a bit out of whack, heh.

-Kiks
22 comments or Leave a comment