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Random werewolf question - The Phantom Librarian
Spewing out too many words since November 2003
Random werewolf question
Theoretical, I don't intend to use it, it just occurred to me.

If a werewolf were kissed by a Dementor and lost his soul, would he still transform at the full moon, and if so, would the wolf also be docile and empty?

I don't really have an opinion.
30 comments or Leave a comment
victorialupin From: victorialupin Date: June 22nd, 2007 03:47 am (UTC) (Link)
Hm. Intriguing. I don't actually think he'd still transform, but on the chance that he might I think the wolf would still be violent -- after all, violence is in its nature, not its soul. It's no different than the empty body feeling hunger.
petitecrivan From: petitecrivan Date: June 22nd, 2007 03:58 am (UTC) (Link)
I have absolutely no idea. But seeing as people who have been kissed can't reproduce, probably they wouldn't turn into a werewolf.

I wonder what they do with all the people who have been kissed. Is there a ward at St. Mungo's? Is there really any point in keeping them around, or do they just do a sort of euthanasia thing?
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: June 22nd, 2007 04:03 am (UTC) (Link)
Do we know they can't reproduce (physically speaking)?

I've also wondered what they do with them. Lupin says you can exist for years. But we also know from Sirius that a lot of people die from mere exposure to Dementors in Azkaban, losing their will to live. I could see them getting shipped back to Azkaban and left to starve.
petitecrivan From: petitecrivan Date: June 22nd, 2007 04:15 am (UTC) (Link)
Well remember when Crouch Jr was kissed by the dementor and they made such a big deal about the end of such an old wizarding line? I wondered about it since it seems like things on that end would work whether or not you have a soul, but that makes me think it doesn't.

What about the people who were innocent, though? What would have happened if, in PoA, Harry and Hermioen had gotten kissed? What would they have been done with their bodies?
victorialupin From: victorialupin Date: June 22nd, 2007 04:19 am (UTC) (Link)
I assumed that the end of the wizarding line comment was just because nobody would want to sleep with somebody whose had his soul sucked out. I don't think it necessarily meant that he was physically incapable of reproducing.
petitecrivan From: petitecrivan Date: June 22nd, 2007 04:24 am (UTC) (Link)
Hm, maybe. (My icon is getting more and more appropriate, it's kind of scary.) Though it seems like if the wizarding world is so obsessed with maintaining wizarding lines they'd find some way to keep it on, even if it means something so icky as sleeping with a souless Death Eater. Or maybe not.
victorialupin From: victorialupin Date: June 22nd, 2007 04:29 am (UTC) (Link)
Yes, I can imagine it would be rather scary when necrophilia is becoming appropriate. ;)
scarah2 From: scarah2 Date: June 23rd, 2007 09:48 am (UTC) (Link)
What, Healers have no IVF? They could probably do it using only their mind!
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: June 22nd, 2007 04:26 am (UTC) (Link)
That was what I thought, too. No sane person would be particularly into it. But then, we're back to my Law and Order obsession, where two of the series have featured episodes about comatose women being pregnant (one was someone who was paid to impregnate her by the parents who wanted a grandchild, the other was inseminated for stem cells, if I recall), so I wasn't really thinking of it as impossible. You could see someone like Bella being crazy enough to "harvest" poor Barty's body.
victorialupin From: victorialupin Date: June 22nd, 2007 04:30 am (UTC) (Link)
*shudders* Yes, I can definitely see Bella doing that. But it's probably such a remote possibility that nobody considered it and just declared it the end of the Crouch family.

Two episodes on it? It's a strange topic to begin with, but to have more than one episode on it amuses me so much.
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: June 22nd, 2007 04:43 am (UTC) (Link)
I know. I leave the show on in the background, and the SVU variant (the stem cell one) came on, and I glanced over and said, "Huh, I though this one was on the original series, guess I remembered wrong." But then it turned out to be a whole different plot based on the concept. I was confused for a while.
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 22nd, 2007 05:28 am (UTC) (Link)
One of the weaknesses in Law and Order is sometimes they have to really stretch to make a particular issue fit a murder investigation and trial format.

There have been real life cases where a pregnant woman was brain dead but they kept her on life support until the child was developed enough to survive.

Magical elements aside, the wizarding world seems rather conservative on legitimacy. To make a long, legal-social-ethics discussion short, I'd guess a child has to be born from a recognized union (ie, married parents) or be formally recognized by family members afterwards if the parents' union wasn't fully legal.

Barty Jr. wasn't married, isn't mentally competent to marry, and isn't mentally competent enough to recognize any potential heirs.

Magic-wise, there are two issues.

First, it may be that a soulless parent cannot create a child with a soul. I can think of one or two beliefs about souls that would support this idea.

Second, I've read enough medieval stuff to know that a lot of reproductive science actually comes close to some of the "darker magics" they believed in during that period.

So, in Harry's world where wizards refer to doctors as nutters who cut people, test tube babies and artificial insemination might carry a lot of dark imagery they don't for us.

Also, especially when using cells taken from wizards, they might really invoke those kind of magics. Bingo! Instant Jersey Devil!

As for the werewolf, I suppose it depends on what you consider the nature of its curse and the nature of its soul in relation to that curse.

For example, if you see a werewolf as someone who is "infected" with the spirit of a wolf, then that should go when the human soul is taken. If you see them as periodically possessed by that spirit, then that spirit would only have been taken if the dementor kissed the victim during the full moon. On the other hand, if you see the wolf as a sort of soulless entity, then it wouldn't make a difference. If you see the curse as a physical transformation, then the transformation would still happen but the behavior would depend on what had caused the behavior before. For example, if the wolf's madness is the result of the human soul trying to deal with the animal's mind, then removing the soul would deal with that.

Quite the theological quandry . . . .

gabrielladusult From: gabrielladusult Date: June 22nd, 2007 09:29 pm (UTC) (Link)
On reproduction: I wonder if the magical world is like what I believe Chinese philosophy to be (I got it from The Joy Luck Club and it's been a while since I read that) -- you can't reproduce without a soul because a piece of your soul is donated to the infant -- of course, if the partner has a soul, then the child could be produced, but with a weaker soul than normal...

OK -- I obviously don't know.

I like what one person said about the werewolf's vicious nature not being dependent on a soul -- but I also wonder if a Dementor's kiss might suck all the "magic" dark and light out of a person so that whatever it is that causes a werewolf transformation might be sucked out a person along with their soul...but that all depends on how dementor's kisses work in your fan-verse and how werewolves are created (is it a blood infection or strictly a magical curse, even though it's caused by a bite).

I don't know on this score either, but it's a fun discussion.
scarah2 From: scarah2 Date: June 23rd, 2007 09:44 am (UTC) (Link)
So giving birth to an infant is like creating a Horcrux? LOL.
gabrielladusult From: gabrielladusult Date: June 23rd, 2007 10:47 am (UTC) (Link)
Yes. I didn't really give it much thought before writing this comment, but it actually fits quite nicely. Life and death are so interconnected and if taking a life shatters your soul why can't creating a life expand it. And when you think about it, isn't having children to love and raise a more accepted way to insure one's immortality?

So babies are the light magic counterpart to Horcruxes.
quirkie From: quirkie Date: June 23rd, 2007 12:11 am (UTC) (Link)
I don't think it's so much that they can't reproduce--it's that they won't. Not only would very few want to sleep with them, but I would assume the kissed person's sex drive would just go out the window :)
norilou From: norilou Date: June 22nd, 2007 04:30 am (UTC) (Link)
There is actually a story on ff.net that deals with that question. It is by an author named Jess Pallas. She has two wonderful novel length stories that are focused on Remus. The first is called "Oblivious" and was written before the sixth book came out. In it she called the whole "Remus was bitten by a werewolf with a grudge" thing. It is an excellent read. In the sequel, "Imperious", the a werewolf gets Kissed and she has an interesting take on what happens after. I highly recommend her stories.
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: June 22nd, 2007 04:45 am (UTC) (Link)
So tempted... (I try to avoid reading stories based on the same characters I write, to avoid bleed-through, but so many sound so tempting...)
jesspallas From: jesspallas Date: June 22nd, 2007 06:54 am (UTC) (Link)
Oh please be tempted. I'd be honoured. :) Or if you haven't the time, I can let you know the Werewolf Kiss theory from Imperius here if you want me to. :)
snorkackcatcher From: snorkackcatcher Date: June 22nd, 2007 10:18 am (UTC) (Link)
I was going to recommend those stories too! They're long (both novel-length) but excellent and I do think you'd like them. (Briefly, there's a concept of a separate 'werewolf soul', which is latent in the first story and a key part of the plot in the second.)
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 22nd, 2007 10:32 am (UTC) (Link)
Wild! I too was going to suggest Jess' work! It's a brilliant theory, it would be great if it could really work.
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 22nd, 2007 08:32 pm (UTC) (Link)
lol me too. I read your entry and jump to the comments to tell you to read "Oblivious" and "Imperius" from Jesspallas. it seems I'm not the only fan...

I must say that I also appreciate your well-thought stories a lot. I should take the time to review once, when I'll find two minutes in between non-stop reading of them (I just discovered your journal 2 weeks ago. a lucky day) :o)
gehayi From: gehayi Date: June 22nd, 2007 05:27 am (UTC) (Link)
I think the werewolf would still transform. Why not? An incurable blood disease doesn't vanish because a person is comatose.

And I have no trouble believing the werewolf would still be vicious. Possibly MORE vicious than the average werewolf, as a soulless werewolf wouldn't have any humanity reining him in, not even a little.
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 22nd, 2007 10:32 am (UTC) (Link)
Ooooh, interesting question!

I guess it would depend on:

1. If the werewolf curse was a purely physical thing.
2. What you consider to be the soul. Is it just the anima, or the thoughts, memories, feelings of a person (what I consider the 'self').
3. If you believe animals have souls.
4. Do werewolves 'remember' what happened when they were wolves? If so, I think this means some of their human 'soul' must still reside in the wolf, and therefore it would not be present if a Dementor got in the kissy mood.

If the werewolf condition is a purely physical state (which I think is the case because after the full moon the person reverts back to their 'self', with all their beliefs and memories intact) then yes, a Dementor could kiss them and the person would still transform.

If the Dementor kissed the werewolf when it was a wolf and you believe the animal had a soul, then they would be empty. If animals don't have a soul (or at least one Dementors want to eat) than I think it would be a happy, hungry wolf.

I don't think the Dementors are attracted to animals though (as we saw by Sirius's whole 'turn into a dog and escape' plan.

So, in conclusion, I don't really know. :)

prettyveela From: prettyveela Date: June 22nd, 2007 11:57 am (UTC) (Link)
Good question! Never thought about it.
(Deleted comment)
stupid_drawings From: stupid_drawings Date: June 23rd, 2007 12:17 am (UTC) (Link)
dun dun duuuuunnnn!
hymnia From: hymnia Date: June 22nd, 2007 06:54 pm (UTC) (Link)
I think yes on both counts. The curse affects both body and soul, so the body would still transform even with the soul absent. And if any person, no matter what they were like in life, just becomes a shell when they are without their soul, then I would expect a soulless werewolf to be an empty shell as well.

It would help if we knew what happened to an ordinary animal kissed by a dementor, though (if dementors ever kiss animals).
meepalicious From: meepalicious Date: June 23rd, 2007 07:51 pm (UTC) (Link)
It would help if we knew what happened to an ordinary animal kissed by a dementor, though (if dementors ever kiss animals).

Which leads to an interesting debate about what makes humans and animals different. On one hand, one could argue that nothing would happen to an animal, because they don't have souls. On the other, one could argue that animals have some personality and memory, which would get sucked out like a soul, leaving the animal comatose like a kissed human would be.

stupid_drawings From: stupid_drawings Date: June 23rd, 2007 12:16 am (UTC) (Link)
I guess it sort of depends on if you think animals have souls... He loses himself when transformed, so maybe he'd still be a damn crazy killing machine. Then again, if I were a dementor (I'd make a crappy one, what with being cheerful and not rotting), I don't think I'd kiss a werewolf. Then again, maybe it would be like when you open a fortune cookie and you get two fortunes instead of one. You are just going about your day, sucking souls, and all of a sudden, BONUS SOUL!
Hmm, I don't think I have an opinion either.
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