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Angel meme - The Phantom Librarian
Spewing out too many words since November 2003
Angel meme
Angel the series meme, grabbed from grimorie

I should probably qualify that, while I love BtVS, I'm only moderately interested by Angel. It's better than 99.9% of the crap on TV, but I can't say I've been emotionally caught up with it at all.

A Fun Angel: The Series Survey
Did you follow Angel from Buffy the Vampire Slayer?I didn't watch either in first run, so I watched them entirely separately.
What did you think of Doyle?I liked him
Was Wesley a good replace for Doyle?I'd have liked to have both around.
Who do you ship from the show?No one, really. I liked the Cordy/Doyle vibe, and Wes/Illyria was way more interesting than Wes/Fred.
Who do you refuse to ship from the show?Angel/Anyone
Which season was your favorite? Why?Five. Because Spike's presence really brought a lot into focus. Although I liked one as well, since it was more like Buffy.
Which characters from Buffy did you want to see as regulars on Angel?Oz and Willow
Faith: Like her? Loathe her? Don't care about her?I like her all right
What did you think of Fred and Gunn's relationship?Meh.
Did you want to see more of Darla?And more with the meh.
Which season Wesley is your favorite?First. I like geeky Wesley.
Which was better, Spin The Bottle or Smile Time?Shrug.
Did you cry when Cordy, Fred and Wesley died?For Cordy, yes. Fred's death scene was good, but I wasn't much invested in her. Wesley was just too much.
Was Angel out of line by erasing his friend's memories when it came to Connor?Yes.
Did you like street!Gunn or lawyer!Gunn better?Street!Gunn
Are you one of those creeps who believe Fred and Lindsey were twins, seperated at birth?Never heard of that one.
Who was better, Angel or Spike?Spike.
Who do you think survived the alley?Everyone left. Though Gunn was injured and might not have made it out. No reason for Angel, Spike, and Illyria not to make it.
What happened to Justine? Is she still handcuffed by the docks?!Someone found her and locked her up for talking crazy.
Do you think Dru and Darla had sexual relations?Didn't they actually SAY so at some point?
Who did Angel belong with, Buffy or Cordy?No one. I like Angel better alone.
Favorite overall episode?Don't have one.
Do you think Joss needs to create a new series based on characters from Angel and Buffy?Yeah--I think he should do one that's about Giles re-creating the Watchers. And have Oz in it.
Do think Wesley deserved forgiveness for kidnapping Connor?If I recall, he did it for good reasons (or what seemed good reasons) so, er, yeah.
Were Lilah and Wesley in love?I think Wesley was.
Did you write hate mail to the WB when they cancelled the series? And, did you send hate mail to Joss when he killed Fred off?Not really.
Spike called Wesley Percy a lot. Do you think Spike read Harry Potter?Absolutely. I'll bet he and Dawn talked about it a lot when she visited his crypt. William's a big fan-geek type, whether he admits it or not.
Are you glad this is over and done with?The meme? Shrug. The show? No way.

27 comments or Leave a comment
aerrin From: aerrin Date: May 3rd, 2005 05:02 pm (UTC) (Link)
Yeah--I think he should do one that's about Giles re-creating the Watchers. And have Oz in it.

This is so my dream spin-off, too. I actually would love to have Dawn there, too. Annoying little twit at first, yes, but in season seven, there were some interesting possibilities that could really be explored well. A grown-up and not-quite-so-whiney Dawn could be a very interesting addition to things.
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: May 3rd, 2005 06:22 pm (UTC) (Link)
I was annoyed at the concept of Dawn, but the character herself wasn't bad. I could deal with her presence, and she's already half-trained as a Watcher. I'd say that, once she's over eighteen, I wouldn't mind seeing her paired with Xander (they're just gosh-darned cute), but then people Xander gets paired with tend to die a lot. Lots of opportunities for cameos from the others. (Argh, first episode, Dawn arrives in England to begin university, and immediately reports to Giles for duty, and he's flummoxed because he'd resolved not to ask her and let her have a happy, normal life. Xander gets back from a particularly lousy misadventure, and voila, a working trio. All they need is an adventure. It's terrifyingly easy to envision this series.)

They've got to be busy with thousands of new Slayers in the world, after all. Trainees could come and go, and many adventures could be made up as they try to re-build the resources of the Council that were destroyed in the fire. Meanwhile, lots of Big Bads got the message that the Slayer had been metaphorically "blinded" by the explosion, and are taking advantage of tons of old prophecies and what have you. Slayers come and go, witches might make occasional visits, but mostly its up to the people doing the brain work to solve the problem every week.
aerrin From: aerrin Date: May 3rd, 2005 11:12 pm (UTC) (Link)
Agreed. The thing I love about Dawn is that, like Xander, she's essentially a normal person dealing with very extraordinary circumstances, without any gifts of her own - and a step beyond Xander, even, in that she has no peers with whom to share the horror of those circumstances. Growing up with that, and into that, could be very, very interesting. And I'd like to see how she does it.

Yes! There's totally tons of potential there. Cameos, guests, heck, you really could build a new series with one or two people from the old and fill in the rest of the cast in various ways and still keep it really interesting.

Man. In my perfect Whedonverse. If only, if only.
butterflysteve From: butterflysteve Date: May 3rd, 2005 05:03 pm (UTC) (Link)
Did you cry when Cordy, Fred and Wesley died?
Wesley dies?! OMG! Really? Is that series 5 then? What happened?
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: May 3rd, 2005 06:09 pm (UTC) (Link)
Oops, sorry for the spoiler. Yeah, last episode. He goes up agaisnt a warlock. SPOILER (highlight): He and Illyria beat the guy, but he's mortally wounded and dies just before the end.
butterflysteve From: butterflysteve Date: May 3rd, 2005 07:00 pm (UTC) (Link)
The spoiler is fine, I've had worse (especially for season 6,7 and 8 of SG-1...sigh.)

But I still can't believe they killed Wes, then again they killed Anya and left annoying binty slayerettes alive.

I think they should definitly do a Watcher show, haven't they done a Giles Mini-series? I remember seeing an interview with Anthony, who is currently starring in Little Britain as the PM- watch the show it's hilarious, and he said something of a mini-series/tv movie thing about Giles.

I wouldn't mind Dawn in it but I'd rather it be more Giles, Xander and Oz or Giles, new character and Xander. It'd be hard though really to fit Oz into it because of the whole "You wouldn't like me when I'm angry" storyline but Xander would work or Andrew. Actually I want my trio as Giles, Xander, Andrew- that would be fun.
(Deleted comment)
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: May 3rd, 2005 06:53 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Werewolf and Watcher

Hmmm. I wonder if a few of us could get together and do a virtual spin-off sort of thing.

I don't know. In the comment above, I mentioned that the slayers had been metaphorically blinded, so maybe something playing on that, like "Blind Man's Bluff" (nah, that's an episode title, not a series title).
persephone_kore From: persephone_kore Date: May 3rd, 2005 08:30 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Werewolf and Watcher

Blinded by the Light?

mistralcat From: mistralcat Date: May 4th, 2005 02:20 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Werewolf and Watcher

Okay, can I just say that I would love to see you do a virtual spin-off like that? Because that? Would so rock. There are several season eights and BtVS/AtS combined next seasons, but I don't think there's anything like this idea out there, and I'd love to see what you'd do with it.

I'd also vote for Giles, Xander, and Dawn as the trio (heh, but not The Trio), with Oz as a major recurring character. He just seems to me to be a rover...and it could mean new plots being brought in by him from his travels, so, bonus.

Though if you could get Willow and Oz back together, that would be even better! :-)
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: May 4th, 2005 03:24 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Werewolf and Watcher

Ah, yes. My fantasy ship--Willow and Oz, together again!

If this happened, it would definitely be a shared-world sort of thing... no WAY could I write a whole season! Maybe I could do an opening script, and some other folks could do more episodes? We'd have to work it out in advance; the last time I did collaborative series scripts (campus soap opera), it turned into some fairly unpleasant bickering among the writers, especially when I pulled rank on them over a bad call that would have affected a lot more of the arc than they were thinking (I was the story coordinator, dammit, and the executive producer, and I had rank, and I'm so not still bitter about it, really...) Erm, off-topic. I've also had really good collaborative prose-writing experiences since, so I'm not averse to the idea. As I am very averse to the idea of trying a whole series alone!

I don't know. Maybe. It sounds kind of fun and different. And I've never seriously written in the Whedonverse. Of course, maybe that means I should try a smaller scale first...
mistralcat From: mistralcat Date: May 4th, 2005 07:03 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Werewolf and Watcher

Yeah, I liked Tara, but I think that Willow-with-Tara took herself too seriously. Willow-with-Oz seemed more aware of her faults and more willing to laugh at them. And let's not even mention Kennedy. I also don't think Willow "suddenly went gay" - she's bi - because nothing anyone could say would convince me that she didn't love and wasn't attracted to Oz. So...I love reading stories where the two of them meet up and get back together again. Did I mention I'm a hopeless romantic?

I have no idea how much work it would be to do a big series like that, except that I'm sure it would be a lot. I've never written in the Whedonverse, either - though I have a Firefly character study I'm working on right now. The language is very different from HP, and very different from the way I usually write, so I've been reluctant to stick my toes in. Besides, there are so many great writers in the fandom already, and I haven't finished reading all of their stories yet! When I joined the HP fandom, it was much earlier on, so I was able to read most of the stories I wanted to fairly easily.
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: May 4th, 2005 08:56 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Werewolf and Watcher

I'm sort of a lone wolf on writing--I start writing, then I'll start poking around and looking at other authors who are recommended to me. Usually I seek out a fandom after I've written some fic for it, or at least have an idea for a story and want to see if it would have a good home somewhere.

I agree about Willow being bi, and your reasoning is exactly mine: nothing anyone could say would convince me that she didn't love and wasn't attracted to Oz. That's pretty plain in the text of the series. And I could rip on the Kennedy thing for ages for exactly that reason--it seemed like the series saying, "She's GAY, dammit, and here's a random lesbian to prove it! And hey, did I mention she's a lesbian? So another lesbian will be attracted to her because that's the way it works. Because heaven knows heterosexual people of opposite sexes are always attracted to one another, no matter how random the pairing."


I had a snippet of Buffy-esque language go through my head earlier, involving Willow trying to cure lycanthropy. It wasn't specifically for Oz, but it created a being that ended up attached to him, because he's the werewolf she's closest to, and she goes to get it before it hurts him, since he has no idea what it is. She explains.

WILLOW: It was supposed to, er, battle the wolfy part, you know. Kind of a... a lycovore. But it wasn't supposed to go straight to you.

OZ: Huh. You think it could vore my lyco?
mistralcat From: mistralcat Date: May 4th, 2005 09:12 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Werewolf and Watcher

Hee! That's so Oz. I love Oz - in the midst of all the other characters, who had a hard time not talking, he worked so well. I loved that bit in one of the later seasons, when Xander says something geeky, and no one responds. He then says, "I miss Oz. He would have understood. He wouldn't have said anything, but he would have understood." And it was so true - Oz was just as geeky as Xander (see the Superman discussion), but since he rarely spoke, it didn't come out so much.

And, yeah, Kennedy. I wonder if TPTB were trying to make sure the fans understood that Tara wasn't killed because she was Willow's Lesbian Girlfriend. If they'd had Willow date a man afterwards, it might have been seen as punishment of the lesbianism (is that a word?). Hopefully, if the series had continued, they would have paired her with people of both sexes. She always struck me as a person who loved who she loved, and she didn't care about anything else.

By the way, I hope you don't mind that I've friended you. I don't know why I didn't do it before, but I'm still new to this LJ thing. :-)
From: ex_olivehorn645 Date: May 4th, 2005 10:20 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Werewolf and Watcher

I didn't realize this thread had gone off in this direction--I saw your other post about collaboration and came back here to poke around.

I love Buffy and Angel, and a virtual spinoff would be fantastic. I know there are a few fan-made Buffy season eights and there is even a fan-made Watcher series. It must have Spike, of course. ;)

Not knowing Buffy-specific writers might not be a bad thing, though. I'm sure between the HP and SW fandoms you frequent, you could find plenty of interested writers who are into the Buffy and Angel series. If you're really interested in doing this, a small start might be best anyway.
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: May 4th, 2005 11:08 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Werewolf and Watcher

Oh, well. If it's already been done, I'm not going to bother with it.
From: ex_olivehorn645 Date: May 4th, 2005 11:25 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Werewolf and Watcher

Aww. I think there is plenty of room for a different kind of story than what they have going. I believe that the one I linked to is almost if not totally exclusively Buffy cast.

There are so many loose ends in Angel with Wolfram and Hart, Connor, the backstory of Angel, Darla, Dru and Spike, the Powers That Be, Illyria and Lorne and even Harmony... there's plenty to work with to make something completely different. The only pure Angel spinoff I've found is totally centered on Spike, and though I adore Spike, I wasn't terribly impressed with the story and characterization.

Ah, well. I liked the idea. :)
From: pathstotread Date: May 3rd, 2005 07:10 pm (UTC) (Link)
Yeah--I think he should do one that's about Giles re-creating the Watchers. And have Oz in it.

I would SO watch this. Seriously.

What did you think of Doyle? I liked him
Was Wesley a good replace for Doyle? I'd have liked to have both around.
Who do you ship from the show? No one, really. I liked the Cordy/Doyle vibe, and Wes/Illyria was way more interesting than Wes/Fred.

Aww. Cordy/Doyle was one of my favorite things about this show. I was heartbroken when he left after only nine episodes (and I loved when Cordy was watching his Angel Investigations video in "You're Welcome".) And yeah, I would have loved to have both Wesley and Doyle around. Doyle just made things...better for me, somehow.
From: hobviously Date: May 3rd, 2005 07:11 pm (UTC) (Link)
Why would Lindsey and Fred be twins? I've never heard ANYBODY say that. Wtf.
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: May 3rd, 2005 07:53 pm (UTC) (Link)
So far, every time I've seen this on my flist, that's been the response. WTF?

Of course, now that it's in my head, um... I don't see it as remotely likely. But I suppose there's nothing blocking it. Just...why?
dudley_doright From: dudley_doright Date: May 3rd, 2005 10:30 pm (UTC) (Link)
Completely OT, but Humongous Bighead doesn't have a review feature, so there you go. Just finished Requiem for a Rat, wonderfully touching story, I liked Ginny's cameo, it's a lot of fun to peak in on characters in moments when we know next to nothing about them in canon, I like the way you've humanized Percy to an extent that you rarely see in the fandom, and I absolutely love any and all glimpses you can give us of ickle!Weasleys
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: May 3rd, 2005 11:23 pm (UTC) (Link)
Thanks! I put in the guestbooks for any reviews people want to leave, but as they're rarely used, I guess they're not very visible!! :)

I love ickle!Weasleys.
gabrielladusult From: gabrielladusult Date: May 3rd, 2005 10:32 pm (UTC) (Link)

OK, is this totally crazy?

Who do you ship from the show? No one, really. I liked the Cordy/Doyle vibe, and Wes/Illyria was way more interesting than Wes/Fred.

In the last couple of seasons of Buffy and Angel, I couldn't help but harbor a secret desire for: Connor/Dawn. I certainly don't think it's any more ick-factor than Connor/Cordy or Connor/Faith or Xander/Dawn (which I also like a little). But, I ship Angel/Buffy (in a "when the world is saved, but it's never going to be, so it can never be" sort of way) -- so I think having them deal with each other as protective parents of dating teens would be pretty amusing.

Who do you think survived the alley? Everyone left. Though Gunn was injured and might not have made it out. No reason for Angel, Spike, and Illyria not to make it.
I was actually going to write a fanfic about this where Buffy and Willow and an army of Slayers come and help them fight off the demons. Then they leave Angel with a Watcher (possibly a woman who was a council member, and also once a potential, so therefore an adult woman who recently received slayer powers) to replace Wes.

And finally a question not on the survey... Do you think Angel knew that Wes couldn't defeat that Warlock and sent him there because he never really forgave him for Connor?


fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: May 3rd, 2005 11:26 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: OK, is this totally crazy?

Oo. Actually, I like Connor/Dawn. Not, like, vastly, but they could be a good team. Especially post-memory wipe/post-memory restoration Connor--he and Dawn could have lovely conversations about made-up memories of life.

I think Angel sent him against the warlock because he thought Wes was the one with the best chance--I think the forgiveness was complete enough.

I love the idea of an army of slayers arriving in the alley right after the last frame of Angel. That's perfect.
From: (Anonymous) Date: May 4th, 2005 01:41 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: OK, is this totally crazy?

There are also fun things they could play with about Angel. Dawn has memories of knowing Angel, probably of being helped by Good Angel and kidnapped and threatened by Angelus. Angel probably has a protective attitude towards Buffy's nonsuperpowered little sister - but have they ever even really met each other?

Connor is the opposite. He grew up being told all about his father (even if from a warped POV) and one of the very few real relationships he had was with his father - but the life that made Connor sane had no memories of him at all.

Now, put them in a science fiction show where people are getting brainwashed all the time so they can find a support group, I suppose.

rabidsamfan From: rabidsamfan Date: May 4th, 2005 01:53 am (UTC) (Link)
Another OT comment.

You got a recommendation at crack_van.

fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: May 4th, 2005 02:00 am (UTC) (Link)
Thanks for the heads-up! :)
fernwithy From: fernwithy Date: May 4th, 2005 02:01 am (UTC) (Link)
(And can I say, wow, that's a story no one's talked about for awhile!)
27 comments or Leave a comment